MARC Waldorf Line?

[gprimr1]

I would be curious to hear other people's inputs on this.

Traffic going up route 5 into DC is pretty bad in the day and at night.

CSX owns a track that goes through Waldorf down to Chalk Point coal station.

I live in Croom and there seems to be only 2 trains on this track per day. I've looked at maps and it seems that a train on this track could get into Union station.

Does anyone think, with more money, MARC could convince CSX to let them run a few trains daily on this track to relieve conjestion on route 5?

I propose the following stops:

La Plata MD
Waldorf MD
Brandywine MD
Upper Marlboro MD
Union Station DC

I know the number of stations is small, I make this suggestion because I know the people who would be potential customers. They don't do public transit, unless it's fast.

Anyone have any suggestions or comments?

[CHIP72]

Do you have an idea how many tracks are in the right-of-way? The answer to that question and how fast the existing freight traffic on that line moves (i.e. how much it "clogs up" the line) are probably major factors in whether CSX would be willing to work with the MTA on instituting service on the line. I can't say I'm super-familiar with the area in question, but I DO know that area is experiencing pretty rapid growth, making commuter rail feasible at least in terms of the potential population served.

[gprimr1]

From my observations and map reading, it apears to be 1 track that goes Brandywine, then becomes two tracks going in different directions. It also looks like there are a few siddings avalible especially in Upper Marlboro and Brandywine.

Traffic wise, I've noted that a coal train goes south usually in the morning and north at night, sometimes in the summer, they run 2 south and 2 north to keep feeding the power plant. I think the other line runs to Pax River but I dont know if it's used.

The biggest problem I see is that CSX runs south in the morning and MARC would need to run north in the morning.

The other big problem is that the line is dark and may have a manual switch in Brandywine.

This would be a challenge for MARC, because it would be courting a different kind of person, a person who will put up with 5 mile backups, the train would have to be fast, but if it was fast, it would prob make good money.

[The Metropolitan]

Interesting topic indeed...

The line you're referring to is what was once known as the POPES CREEK Branch of the PRR, and YES it did used to run passenger service until about the late 1940's - the 1955 Guide to the Railways shows it as Freight only by this time.

Having once been a passenger line is a plus, as it was built to carry people, and could conceivably do so again.

Having said this, there are some caveats.

First is that in order to reach DC, the line essentially has to work its way North across PG county to reach Bowie, before turning SW to travel the NEC towards Union Station - Distance between Bowie and LaPlata alone is 38.8 miles, so under an ideal avg. speed of 60 MPH, we're talking nearly 40 minutes from LaPlata to the NEC. Add another 15 minutes or so to reach Union, and we're talking a 55 minute ride end to end, a good bit better than the 87 minutes that the current #907 bus takes to make it from LaPlata to the Smithsonian Metro.

However, I'm pretty certain that we're talking LOTs of work to get this line up to snuff to get it to run trains with decent speed. I can imagine that only the minimum of maintenance is done on it, as the coal frieghts aren't in any serious hurry to get to and from the plant. As well, I'd fathom that this is "dark" territory with little more than radio clearance and orders used to govern its use, since I doubt it ever sees multiple trains at the same time.

The area you refer to IS one of good growth - the MTA Commuter bus ridership has been showing healthy growth in the corridor for years now.

Personally, I think it would be a wise investment that could be done for under $200M - serving a good number of people on a line that would not be subject to, or be the cause of frieght congestion.

[octr202]

That long jog from Upper Marlboro to Bowie is probably enough to kill it -- the amount of money spent to upgrade the line could possibly (in the planner eyes...and the FTA's) do something we'd all hate like "enhance" commuter bus serivce in such a way that the time savings are comparable to the roundabout path the railroad takes, even if its in good shape.

The small bits and pieces of it that I've seen show it to be quite the branch line -- not lots of long straightaways and grade seperation that you need for high speed passenger service today -- but that's far from my having a good knowledge of it. In the 1940s much slower service would suffice than today.

I would think that if the state were to take this line off of CSXT's hands while not restricting the current freight service too much, they'd go for that, however, given the not always great relationship between the Maryland MTA and CSXT, other issues from the Camden & Brunswick lines might make a deal less feasible.

[The Metropolitan]

Double checking, I see where it's more like 25 minutes from Bowie State to DC, so now we're talking a range of 65 - 70 minutes in travel time, still REASONABLY better than the existing buses.

As strange as it seems that there's no old R-o-W linking Washington and the Southern Md. Area, it does seem that there is not. Historically, Baltimore was the more robust industrial town than was DC, so it seems that the Pope's Creek line was designed more to feed Baltimore than DC.

If only there was a faster way from Marlboro to DC.

Boy would the NIMBYs have fun with this....

A tale of the line...

http://www.traingod.railfan.net/history.html

[gprimr1]

If I have the route right in my head, the line get's close to the Blue and maybe Orange lines of the Metro.

I wonder if the blue line could be extended to create an intermodal station with trains being timed to arrive and department synced with the MARC trains.

This of course points out the fatal flaw with the DC Metro, it's inability to skip stops.

Could MARC somehow connect this train to the CSX tracks in Landover and come into DC?

There are no grade seperations with this line, there are even some unsignaled crossings.

The max speed on this line per CSX is 45 I think, but it could be upgraded. The line is a mix of welded and joined rail, welded rail is found around upper marlboro when there was a big derailment that tore up the track.

We also have to remember that the train will make that 75 minute trip 99.9% of the time. The 907 bus could be killed by 1 or two accidents.

[Aa3rt]

The last passenger train over the Pope's Creek line ran in September 1949. This was not a passenger train, per se, but a mixed freight/peddler that ran once a day between Baltimore and Pope's Creek, carrying mail and the occasional passenger.

A proposal to run commuter trains on this line was made in 1980 or 1981 but died due to lack of governmental support. With CSX now operating the line, I doubt very seriously that any efforts to operate commuter rail, no matter how well based in logic and common sense, would get too far.

This subject was discussed in the Delmarva and Washington, DC, Railfan forum in this thread:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21691

The last few posts cover the commuter rail topic.

[Aa3rt]

I would be curious to hear other people's inputs on this.

Traffic going up route 5 into DC is pretty bad in the day and at night.

And it's going to remain that way. There's another "study" of the Route 301 corridor starting, guaranteed to make a few consultants independently wealthy while traffic in Prince George's and Charles Counties will continue to get worse. The current study is to include the possibility of commuter rail in this corridor.

For more on this "study":

http://www.us301waldorf.org/

For a map of the study area:

http://www.us301waldorf.org/pages/project/studyarea.htm

CSX owns a track that goes through Waldorf down to Chalk Point coal station.

Minor correction-the line to Chalk Point branches off at Brandywine (MP 24.6). The line through Waldorf and La Plata continues to the Morgantown power plant on the north shore of the Potomac, near the Governor Harry W. Nice Bridge.

I live in Croom and there seems to be only 2 trains on this track per day. I've looked at maps and it seems that a train on this track could get into Union station.

Train frequency is dictated by electrical demand, availability of coal (and the cars to ship it in)and the amount of coal stockpiled, particularly at Morgantown. There's also a twice-weekly local and a (usually) three times a week gravel train (Monday-Wednesday-Friday) to a gravel pit just north of La Plata that usually runs at night.

Last winter, coal was being mixed with asphalt at Morgantown and then taken to Chalk Point. This was commonly referred to as the "synfuel" train.

Another link with information on the Pope's Creek Subdivision:

http://www.mainline.railfan.net/guide/pope.html

[CBRy]

A poster remarked that "there is no old ROW between Marlboro and
DC". That is incorrect. The old Cheapeake Beach Railway ROW still
exists almost entirely intact and unmolested even in the Metro Area!
With minimal condemnation it could be rebuilt at least to Marlboro
where it once had a large station.

As to the condition of the CSX ROW throught Southern Maryland,
Quite a bit of the Morgantown line is heavy welded rail and the bed
is very well maintained and ballasted. This whole lie was rebuilt when
it was extended to Morgantown in 1968 and it always carried quite a
heavy freight load as it used to supply a power plant at Popes Creek
that belonged to Southern Maryland Electric Coop. The ruins are still
there today (at least two years ago when I visited).

The ROW to Chalk Point is also pretty well maintained. The train orders
are usually by radio dispatch and there is no signaling to speak of.
The possibilities of commuter rail traffic should be feasible due to the
traffic patterns of the customers along the line. Similar traffic patterns
exist on the MARC light rail lines around Baltimore with Canton RR
and Former Conrail servicing customers at night when MARC trains
are off line. So the precedent exists.

If CSX abandons the line, efforts should be made to convince the
Md Gov't to "railbank" the line as they have done elsewhere in the
State even if it isn't used immediately. Other possibilities would be
to get a shortline operator to take the line over (even temporarily)
to service the remaining customers and keep traffic alive to stave
off NIMBY efforts to make the line into a "trail"!

Just my 2c.......

[CBRy]

In regards to travel times over the route of 60-75 minutes...
I used to travel the route from Southern Maryland to Washington
Navy Yard and the NOMINAL/AVERAGE commute was (1990's)
1 1/2 hours! And THAT is with NO back ups or accidents! If you
have ANY kind of bad weather, dummies on the roads, or an
accident then you can expect a MINIMUM commute of 3 hours
or more! Plus you have to find/pay for parking in DC area,
deal with tension of driving, etc. This is the same scenario that
gave birth to VRE and they have been pretty successful! The one
thing that the Southern Maryland line would not have is the con-
stant battle with CSX over freight traffic because the traffic on the
SoMd lines operate during the off-hours and wouldn't conflict with
the passenger traffic. Good deal all around! Maybe CSX would even
consider a lease arrangement with MARC for tracksage rights and
thus get some revenue that would be lost from the lack of coal
shipments to the power plants.

2 more cents........

[gprimr1]

Mr. AaR3t, I ment to thank you for that highly informative post on the Pope's Creek line in the fallen flags forum, I learned alot.

I always wondered where that other line in Brandywine went, but it makes sense now, since one line looks like it would follow 301.

I couldn't imagine that line becoming a trail, lots of grade crossings.

How would chaulk point get it's fuel? I didn't think the river was deep enough to bring coal up.

[The Metropolitan]

A poster remarked that "there is no old ROW between Marlboro and
DC". That is incorrect. The old Cheapeake Beach Railway ROW still
exists almost entirely intact and unmolested even in the Metro Area!
With minimal condemnation it could be rebuilt at least to Marlboro
where it once had a large station.

Just my 2c.......

I very happily stand corrected!

I loaded up the old satellite mapper, the Railfan's best friend, and sure enough found the ROW of this railway that I honestly never "knew" about, even though I probably saw a timetable in an old Official Guide to the Railways!

Peering through the remains, it certainly does look passable with few exceptions. Tracing the merge of the two lines from LaPlata to DC is about 37.7 miles. Add a connector to the NEC across the badlands of the Annacostia, and we're talking about 39 miles end to end - certainly something that could be done in under 60 minutes with proper track grade, and certainly something that should be doable and viable!

Here's the map the resulting ROW...

[Aa3rt]

Mr. Aa3rt, I meant to thank you for that highly informative post on the Pope's Creek line in the fallen flags forum, I learned alot.

You're welcome!

How would Chalk Point get it's fuel? I didn't think the river was deep enough to bring coal up.

The pier that was discussed in the other forum is a proposed 500' pier that would extend into the Potomac River at Morgantown. Coal would be offloaded at M'town and then transshipped to Chalk Point via rail.

When the Morgantown and Chalk Point power plants were built in the late 1960's/early 1970's, fuel oil was much less expensive than it is now. Both plants were originally intended to burn oil with a coal backup. Then came the big oil crisis of 1973 which caused coal to become the primary fuel.

The Morgantown plant has an oil offloading facility and oil storage tanks, readily visible from Rte. 301, near the Harry W. Nice Bridge.

Oil comes to Chalk Point via pipeline from Piney Point in St. Mary's County. Perhaps you recall the pipeline rupture and resulting oil spill that fouled the Patuxent River a couple of years ago. During that time, oil was taken to Chalk Point via train. There was a train of about 12 tank cars that ran between M'town and Chalk Point, using the south leg of the wye in Brandywine to transfer from the Pope's Creek to the Herbert sub. This is the same route utilized by the "synfuel" train I mentioned in a previous post.

A link to a photo of the oil train, southbound in La Plata. (La Plata Train Station Museum blocked from view by the locomotive.)

http://www.traingod.railfan.net/JV/oiltrain_laplata.jpg

[Sand Box John]

"The Metropolitan"
I loaded up the old satellite mapper, the Railfan's best friend, and sure enough found the ROW of this railway that I honestly never "knew" about, even though I probably saw a timetable in an old Official Guide to the Railways!

Peering through the remains, it certainly does look passable with few exceptions. Tracing the merge of the two lines from LaPlata to DC is about 37.7 miles. Add a connector to the NEC across the badlands of the Annacostia, and we're talking about 39 miles end to end - certainly something that could be done in under 60 minutes with proper track grade, and certainly something that should be doable and viable!

The Chesapeake Beach Railroad easement has been left pretty much unmolested in Prince’s Georges County. Washington Gas does use part of the easement for the gas line from the LNG terminal at Calvert cliffs, and Pepco has a power line along the easement between Addison Road and Ritchie Road. The easement of truncated Chesapeake Beach Railroad that became Eastern Washington in DC in another matter some of that easement was sold and has had tract houses built on it. The shopping center on the northwest corner of Central Avenue and Addison Road is built on the easement.

I will note the Chesapeake Beach Railroad easement crosses the WMATA G Route Blue line easement in the vicinity of the Addison Road Station.