Automatic Train Stops on the Atlantic Branch

[DaveBarraza]

I have a set of 1968 interlocking diagrams that show Automatic Train Stops (NYCT-style) on the Atlantic Branch at Dunton, ENY, and Van. I spoke with a retired Signal Maintainer who started in the late 60's and he recalled removing the trips in the 1970's.

Does anyone have any additional information on this?

Were they installed when the line was placed underground in 1939-42?

Were the trips removed and replaced by cab signaling so the M1's would not have to be equipped for both?

Wiki-P says that NYP was equipped at one time as well, but they were long gone by 1968...

Thanks,
Dave

[Trainmaster5]

Didn't the BRT/ BMT and the LIRR have interchanges in Brooklyn before the 1940's ? IIRC they shared trackage to Park Row over the Brooklyn Bridge around Flatbush Avenue, trains to Williamsburgh connecting on Atlantic Avenue in East New York, and a long ago Franklin Avenue connection toward Prospect Park ? Maybe the trips are relics of that era.

[nyandw]

Didn't the BRT/ BMT and the LIRR have interchanges in Brooklyn before the 1940's ? IIRC they shared trackage to Park Row over the Brooklyn Bridge around Flatbush Avenue, trains to Williamsburgh connecting on Atlantic Avenue in East New York, and a long ago Franklin Avenue connection toward Prospect Park ? Maybe the trips are relics of that era.

http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/chestn ... %20jct.htm
LIRR - Chestnut Street Junction

Emery-Map-Chestnut Street Jct - Milford St. to Autumn Ave_pre-1942.jpg Chestnut Street Jct. Milford St. to Autumn Ave. E
Connection to BRT put in at Chestnut Street: 1898. Used until 1917, torn down: 19______?

http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/bayridge/bayridge.htm
Bay Ridge Branch


The only connection to the BMT subway, note; no third rail NYCRR Summer 2000Trip, East New York

[Crabman1130]

Did Flatbush Terminal ever have a connection to the subway?

[nyandw]

Did Flatbush Terminal ever have a connection to the subway?

I can't answer that with a solid yes/no, but perhaps here is some help: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/flatbush/flatbush.htm

IMO, only: no.

[Doc Emmet Brown]

The LIRR did have a track that connected to the Subway in Flatbush ave Brooklyn. The track and switch were still in place when I hired on in 1973.
It ran along the north side of the station to the west end of the number 2 and 3 line, on the west end of the number 2 and 3 line platform. The switch connecting to the LIRR was just west of the Number 2 and 3 Platform and had a signal.
I was told it was used years before by some rich person who had their own private car, to go from wallstreet to Flatbush ave.. It might have been august Belmont I dont remember. In any case in this picture, while we cant see the track, it runs behind the Yellow wood wall on the right, and connected on the west end of the platform to the number 2 and 3 line. If you look close, you can see the tiled subway wall curving with the track.

[Trainmaster5]

Doc is talking about a connection with the subway and the LIRR at Atlantic Avenue-Flatbush Terminal. As a Brooklynite and a retired motorman for NYCT I know the exact location he's speaking about and have also heard the stories about August Belmont and his private rail car. I've never actually seen the connecting switch itself, however. The connection I referenced in my earlier post was actually about the elevated connection which existed on Atlantic Avenue next to today's Barclay Center. For years there was an isolated elevated structural remnant which supposedly connected the BMT Fifth Avenue elevated line with the LIRR allowing railroad trains a means to reach Park Row using the Brooklyn Bridge. It was on the same side of Atlantic Avenue as the LIRR train yard( Van?). I could see the need for subway style trip arms on a location like that as well as the Chestnut Street incline. I did live in Brownsville many years ago so I was aware of the now severed connection with the Canarsie line and Bay Ridge Branch at the New Lots Avenue Canarsie station. The last time I saw that connection used was when the TA was storing BMT Standard cars and some others in preparation for eventual scrapping. There never was a need for trip arms there because the railroad and rapid transit didn't run joint service at that location.

[NIMBYkiller]

I remember reading something about an elevated spur from the Brooklyn terminal to a meat warehouse or something like that. I saw it on one of the LIRR history sites, but I don't recall it saying anything about the spur being used for any service over the Brooklyn Bridge

[Backshophoss]

Believe that Private Car in unrestored condition is part of the Shore Line East(Branford Ct) Museum collection,
it was powered and built to IRT specs. The car was buried deep in 1 of the carbarns there.

[krispy]

The elevated ramp that was VD yard did rise up to street level. It looked like it may have had two tracks at one time but the pics I've seen of it so just one. It curved away originally from the void/hole where there was a very small tower/cabin called CT, and I remember it had a apple tree growing part way up the ramp, tossed that way a long time ago from some employee. Later that was accessed from VD Yard. I didn't go in where the old CT tower was, but it was narrow as heck and looked much smaller than Van (I had to sit sideways on the throne in Van, that's how small it was. It must have sucked to be a maintainer to work in the relay room down there too). May I refer everyone to Art Huneke's site on this specific page: http://arrts-arrchives.com/vdyd.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and the first image below the banner is a page from an ancient timetable and at the bottom is listed Brooklyn Bridge. How that was done I have no idea, I thought it was more than a mile from Atlantic Ave. terminal to the bridge, but I've been wrong before. Perhaps an email to Art can get you the definitive answer on whether or not Belmont's car made the trip, I've heard both yea and nay from many sources (including one spectacular argument from a pair of YE condr's). But Mr. Huneke is certainly a great source of info on what happened down there.

Sorry for the off-topic diversion but this may amuse some of you: I haven't been down there since they closed VD, so I brought up a google map just to see the changes since they built Barclays. It's interesting to note that if you zoom in on satellite view, you see one image until a certain point and then it jumps into what they call 45 deg view. Unclick that and you see an older image where they haven't built Barclays yet, and the ramp is still visible. Carlton Ave is missing and it looks like they have just demolished the old Carlton Ave. (was that what is was called?) car shop. Click back on the 45 deg view, and the ramp is gone, replaced by a bulkhead and they've almost finished rebuilding the Carlton Ave overpass. That's easily a year in age between the two images.

EDIT: Wasn't there a post by Clem on the definitive answer on whether or not the connection was used? I kind of sort of remember a post many moons ago about this very topic but will darned if I can find it.

[nyandw]

The OP asked about: More info about "Auto Train Stops" ...

[scopelliti]

One item to note... if you use Google Earth (the application that runs on your PC, MAC or Linux system) you have the option of using imagery from as far back as 1994 (or thereabouts). I don't think this feature is available on the web-based Google Maps. Resolution might not be as good given the poorer satellite imagery available, but worth a shot. For example, you can go to Morris Park and watch the changes over the years by just moving the time slider back and forth.

[Trainmaster5]

Getting back to the automatic train stop question the OP asked about. I went to the LIRRhistory.com site and checked the joint BRT-LIRR service pages. There is a brief explanation of the 5th Avenue-LIRR joint service to Brooklyn Bridge as well as a few pictures of the connection. That's the only reason I could think of for automatic train stops to be used on the Atlantic Branch. Between that location in Downtown Brooklyn and the one in East New York near Chestnut Street where BRT trains connected with the railroad to provide service to the Rockaways subway style train stops would be used.

[Crabman1130]

With the connection at Flatbush wouldn't there need to be train stops on the line if subway equipment was being run on the branch?

[vince]

Not necessarily as the transit trainstops are there to prevent running red signals. Today such a car would be required to have ASC and cab signals. The Mineola, the private car used for transport from the private Belmont Hotel basement station on 42nd street to the races at Belmont Park was not equipped with ASC. I don't think it existed at the time the car was used.

A story related to me years ago by a neighbor who worked for the TA was when the NYCTA was testing the new IRT cars (don't know the R designation) they used the Flatbush connection to get them onto the LIRR for speed testing. Never heard that from anyone else.

This neighbor (Teddy) did get me a foot long section of used IRT rail (he said from 14th st & Lexington ave station) that I used to make a pair of bookends which I still have.
Man that rail was a true bitch to cut and shape at the machine shop my father-in-law worked in Queens Village. We spent 4 hours after midnight and kept me busy sharpening the tool bits for the shaping machine.

Regarding the private subway car The Mineola, that ran over IRT tracks to Flatbush and then LIRR to Belmont Park.
Some have said this is a myth. It's not!
Some have said it's a made up story. It's not!

Well guys I have the February 1956 edition of Railroad Magazine (50 cents!) that has a four page article with pictures by E. J. Quinby titled "MINNIE WAS A LADY". (his caps)
Subtitle: The Worlds Only Private Subway Car Was the Pet Project of August P. Belmont, Who Built an Underground Systemfor America's Largest City.
I also have an article from the Wednesday, May 23, 1973 New York Times on page 49 by Michael Knight titled "IRT Gilded Parlor Car Now Museum Piece" datelined East Haven, Conn May 22.

I personally with wife & 3 kids visited the Branford Trolley Museum and did actually walk through the car. It had not at that time been prepared for display and was a bit of a mess. Not bad but a good cleaning needed.

Here are a couple of scans that give the real information and puts the nay-sayers back in their holes.

Minnie001 (Medium).jpg

Minnie002 (Medium).jpg

Best,
Vince Cockeram
presently installing scenery on the Long Beach Branch, Centre Avenue to 'da beach.
btw, this LIRR route will only be runnable on the freeware Open Rails Simulator. (heavy scenery crashes MSTS)