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  • Hydrogen fuel powered locomotives

  • Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.
Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.

Moderator: GOLDEN-ARM

 #67944  by TerryC
 
I read in a recent Trains magazine article about the U.S Army having a Hydrogen powered locomotive. The unit is an ex Southern Pacific GP20 equipped with one fuel cell making around 1,300 horepower. Would it be possible to do this to a SD40-2, but instead have 2 power cells and use it on a mainline somewhat?

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 #67961  by Allen Hazen
 
Probably possible-- I think fuel cells are lighter in weight than the "medium speed" diesel engines used on locomotives-- but this is an experiment. My guess is that they will spend months or years testing (and modifying, and testing again, and...) the first fuel-cell locomotive in basically switching service before trying out the idea on a high-horsepower locomotive that will block traffic on a main line if it fails.
(GUESSWORK: I'm not a professional, and have no source of scuttlebut on this.)

 #68596  by QuietGuy
 
I heard EMD built a Fuel Cell powered locomotive in 2003 using GM's Fuel cell technology. I converts Diesel Fuel to hydrogen, then generates DC electricity to go to the inverters. It was a small pilot project, using an old locomotive with some new parts. They didn't even take the diesel engine out, just put the new stuff on a flat car, along with the fuel cells, convertors, etc and ran wires to the locomotive. It worked, proved their point, then it was dissassembled. They can do a final design and build them if a market appears for it.

The Green Goats - low emission battery powered switchers have been out for over two years, no one wants them, even though they do the job and have less than 10% of a normal locomotive emission.

The fuel cell would be even lower. Cost of a fuel cell would be about $10 megabucks today - maybe $2 megabucks in eight years or so. I suspect that some non-attainment markets or areas with a lot of Green Party types (Vermont & Los Angeles, maybe Denver also) may require the local railroads to run these, that will create a market and then they will be built. This would be a whole new look at locomotives - as radical as going from steam to diesel-electric!!

 #68906  by mxdata
 
Simply being "green" is not enough, the product needs to be "green" in the right way or nobody is interested, as MK found out with the MK1200G. The makeup of "air pollution" differs from location to location, and a locomotive which might be helpful in reducing pollution in one city could have little or no influence in the type of non-attainment problem in another city. This is an enormous topic and you can spend many confusing hours studying it.

 #175616  by XBNSFer
 
Hydrogen powered anything (cars, locomotives, you name it) is idiotic. Hydrogen is the atomic world's Elizabeth Taylor - it "marries" incessantly and is never found in an unbonded state. To GET hydrogen, you have to USE energy - the end result being that it we had every transport mode using "hydrogen fuel" tomorrow, we'd use MORE oil and other fossil fuels than we're using now by simply burning gasoline and diesel fuel to power things directly.

Th ugly truth about hydrogen powered vehicles is that tailpipe emissions can be reduced (i.e., that pollution that nobody can isolate themselves from completely) but "smokestack" emissions will be increased, and the "production" of the hydrogen for use in those vehicles could then be placed in poor/middle class neighborhoods (you don't think the hydrogen plant will be in Beverly Hills where all the rich greenies who tout it live, do you?!). Bottom line: rich get richer (oil men make even more money because it's less efficient to divorce hydrogen from whatever it's bonded to and then compress it for fuel use than to just use gas and diesel) and pollution is concentrated away from rich neighborhoods (i.e., the poor and middle class get screwed even more than they do already).

 #176201  by Nasadowsk
 
Hydrogen's a dead fuel. It's pretty obvious the 'hydrogen economy' is unworkable, at best. Fuel cell hype is rapidly going away as the reality of fuel cells sets in. They're megabucks, fragile, and short lived. Nobody's going to pay $40,000 for a cramped 50HP golf cart that can't climb hills, can't be used in cold weather, and needs a new fuel cell every 2 years...

 #180437  by XBNSFer
 
If people have any sense, "hybrid" cars will go the same way - to an early grave. Hybrids actually get worse fuel economy than a COMPARABLE conventional gas or diesel powered car. The problem is that the auto manufacterers use some smoke and mirrors to make the hybrid powertrain APPEAR to add more economy than it does by using lighter weight materials for vehicle hoods, trunklids, etc. and by using overly skinny, low rolling resistance tires (that don't allow the car to handle as well and compromise braking performance as well), i.e., the hybrid "versions" of certain popular cars are not "comparable" versions to the conventional gas powered version, but use other mileage-enhancing "tricks" that could be applied to the regular car as well (which of course would expose the hybrid versions for the sham they essentially are). The additional complexity, aside from the huge up-front cost differential, will add a tremendous amount to the cost of repairs/maintenance, and then there's the environmental nightmare conveniently ignored by all the supposedly environmentally conscious people pushing these things - the toxic waste dumps that will have to be started SOMEWHERE (again, not in Beverly Hills!) to dispose of all those dead battery packs.

 #180680  by Nasadowsk
 
Once the tax incentives for hybrids go away, hybrids will too. They basically short circuit the EPA's broken method of measuring mileage. You'd think the EPA would do it the logical way - run the test cycle over and over until they burn off 10 gallons or so, then figure out the average mpg. Nope - they do it via some broken statistical analysis of the car's emissions. Toytota figured out how to short circuit that method and get great numbers.

Realistically, a Prius without the hydrid stuff, the batteries, etc would likely get the same mileage. But nobody today could sell a 70hp car that gets 40mpg - it just won't sell. And on an MPG per HP bassis, the Prius is worse than a Corvette - it's got barely 100hp (and that's including the shot in the arm motor, not just the lethargic gas engine), yet gets 10-15mpg better than a Corvette with more than 4 times the power...

The bigt issue is the driving cycles where hybrids work should best are the same kinds of cycles that are hell on batteries. Once again, battery technology just isn't there.

Even hybrid transit busses are now believed to not have the emissions or mileage advantages they thought they would. i suspect you'll see them, though, because of the 'PC' factor (why must transit in the US be sold on political correctness as opposed to overal system useability?!?), and because hybrid buses have other advantages - better low end punch, ease of low floor design, easier noise control.

Even the most rosy predictions for hybrid cars now place them at no more than 10X of the market (if that!). The public will, of course chose, and so far, hybrids aren't a very good sell.

What's sad is, if they'd just chop 500 lbs off most cars, they'd get much better mileage AND be faster too.

The other biggie will be better undercar air management - that's starting to show up now. Big gains there.

Hybrids came along because it became blindingly obvious in the late 90's that California's battery car mandate wasn't going to be met (because there's STILL no decent electric cars out there, and likely wion't be), and they had to 'do something'. Why bother? Today's SULEV car will emitt 1 pint of hydrocarbons over 100,000+ miles. You'll litterally SPILL more gas gassing it up than it'll pollute. Realistically, the big HC emissions gain would be a new and better fueling system for cars - prefferably one that locks the nozzle into the filler and takes care of itself while you do the windows and such (as opposed to those horrid vapor recovery ones that you have to sit on or they'll shoot out). As far as NOx and CO are concerened? Catalysts are still getting better, today's engines have such little engine out emissions that further rdeductions are really giving diminishing returns. CO2? Sure, why not regulate how much people breathe too, then (after all, people emit lots of the stuff 24/7 car or no car...)

 #182807  by QuietGuy
 
A car needs big horsepower to get up to speed quickly. My old Ford Pinto would take about 20 seconds to get to 60mph. A mustang that weighs the same only took about 10 seconds since it had twice the horsepower. Unfortunately, when you put on the brakes, all that energy goes to heating up the atmosphere through the brakes. The advantage of the hybrid cars with electric drive and batteries is that while they use all that power to get the car up to speed, when it slows down, the kinetic energy is transferred back into electrical power and put back into the battery. Thus, it is not lost and can be reused to speed the car up again. This is where the gasoline is saved, not as much energy is needed to get the car up to speed again, it reuses what was stored from a previous slowdown. This would be a tremendous savings in normal stop and go driving in the cities. There isn't much help if you are driving out in the country.

A hydrogen powered car is only good in the city in that it doesn't add to local pollution at that spot. The pollution is created somewhere else, whereever the hydrogen is generated. This is the reason that I use an electric lawnmower - I don't push a lot of pollution into my local neighborhood. It's not my problem that the midwestern electric utility is generating pollution that is dropping onto the east coast!! This same will hold true with locomotives - for non-attainment areas (meaning Los Angeles or any major city), you can eliminate pollution from locomotives if they run on hydrogen. Put somewhere else the pollution is being created to make the hydrogen. If it is generated far from the city, it is a good thing.

As for global warming, man may be doing part of it, but if the sun is going through some sort of cycle similar to the sunspot cycle, it will have a bigger effect on global warming than man's puny efforts. We know that the ice ages occurred - was it some cycle that is showing up as global warming in the short term? We have only been measuring the Ozone Hole during the present sunspot cycle. It's size has changed as the sunspot cycle has changed. Is it related to industrial releases of chlorinated refrigerants or to the sunspot cycle? We will know in eleven more years as the sunspot cycle goes to minimum then rises towards maximum again. I better move from this site to the skeptical inquirer site to complete these thoughts -HAHAHA!!

 #184305  by N. Todd
 
I don't find hydrogen power feasible. Note that it it also very flammable. That's why blimps/airships use helium now. Remember the Hindenburg?
If you need energy to convert hydrogen...get it for a hydroeletric or nuclear plant.
But I am curious as to why BN quit the LNG program. Any answers? Was it feasible or cost effective? Why not adopt that livery on those two SD42½-1s?

 #184762  by BlackDog
 
N. Todd wrote:But I am curious as to why BN quit the LNG program. Any answers? Was it feasible or cost effective? Why not adopt that livery on those two SD42½-1s?
One of the things i heard about them from a former BN conductor was that the power plants were not too happy having those hydrogen bombs on the power plant property when they delivered the unit coal trains.

 #193681  by trainiac
 
Note that it it also very flammable. That's why blimps/airships use helium now. Remember the Hindenburg?
Well, it's not like fossil fuels aren't flammable...

I don't see hydrogen and hybrid systems as being dead in the imminent future... Maybe that's because I'm in Quebec where most people drive small cars and most electricity is generated by river dams.

 #193750  by AmtrakFan
 
Terry,
I doubt it would be possible for an SD40-2 but for something like an SW1500 I could see them doing it.