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  • "Almost real" EMD locomotives

  • Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.
Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.

Moderator: GOLDEN-ARM

 #69565  by Bryanjones
 
GM 92 is the SD89MAC testbed unit. The locomotive is identical to the phase II SD90MAC-H with the only difference being that the SD89MAC has a 12 cylinder 265H primer mover vs the 16 cylinder 265H found in the SD90MAC-H. The SD89 is rated at 4500hp and is still under development. They have not given up on the 265H prime mover and have working to correct its flaws before introducing the new model, much the same as GE has done with its Evoloution series locomotives powered by the new GEVO prime mover.

Bryan Jones
 #1625982  by Pensyfan19
 
I just premiered the first episode in a new series named Unbuilt, which covers every proposed, canceled and never built locomotive from a certain manufacturer. Considering the first episode focused on EMD, with some of my research for the video being supported by these forums, I decided to post it here for your enjoyment. :-D

https://youtu.be/FfqYtHRTU1o
 #1632730  by ChenMelling
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 5:40 pm I just premiered the first episode in a new series named Unbuilt, which covers every proposed, canceled and never built locomotive from a certain manufacturer. Considering the first episode focused on EMD, with some of my research for the video being supported by these forums, I decided to post it here for your enjoyment. :-D

https://youtu.be/FfqYtHRTU1o
Thank you for this informative and interesting video.

I wish to offer a correction and some further information regarding the never-built model R for export (c. 21:44 in you video). As you can see from the attached 1954 diagram (from the archives of the Israel Railway Museum), it was intended to be a 16-cylinder powered loco, and not just a 12-wheeled version of the G12. This is confirmed in Specification 9003 we have in our archives, though the specification confusingly refer to it as a 6-motored locomotive, whereas the diagram states it is 4-motored.
The 6-motor G12 was later realised as the Modle GR12 while the 16-cylinder export road-switcher became the G16, which was closely based on the G12 design (or rather the GR12 design) , unlike the earlier proposed R.
Also note that the diagram presented of a GR-9b is actually of the A1A version of the G8 used by Canadian National, and thus little-related to the proposed R. Plus, the R is much earlier than the SD18 and would have had very different trucks, frames, body, cab and most fittings.
Attachments:
עמודים מ R (Spec. 9003, 01.02.1954).jpg
עמודים מ R (Spec. 9003, 01.02.1954).jpg (1.47 MiB) Viewed 1039 times
Last edited by ChenMelling on Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1632732  by ChenMelling
 
Also note that the EMD G16 export model was offered with A1A trucks as an option, but only ever built as Co'Co' locomotives, to my knowledge. See Diesel Railway Traction, January 1961. The EMD ad in Diesel Railway Traction, November 1958 implies that a Bo'Bo' version was also designed. This would have made it directly comparable to the GP9, but again, none are known to have been ordered or built.
 #1632945  by Pneudyne
 
I have an EMD brochure, undated but probably from 1954 or 1955, that covers the export models R, B, G-12 and G-8. Here are a couple of pages from the R, broad gauge, and R, universal gauge sections:

GM DE Locos p.07.jpg
GM DE Locos p.07.jpg (812.24 KiB) Viewed 976 times
GM DE Locos p.11.jpg
GM DE Locos p.11.jpg (686.92 KiB) Viewed 976 times

The equipment schedule was probably similar to that used for the AA16 export model built by EMD associates including Henschel, Nohab and AFB.


Cheers,
 #1635800  by Pneudyne
 
The first two (of four) pages on the Model B from the GM brochure:
GM DE Locos p.13.jpg
GM DE Locos p.13.jpg (655.84 KiB) Viewed 546 times
GM DE Locos p.14.jpg
GM DE Locos p.14.jpg (428.63 KiB) Viewed 546 times

Cheers,
 #1635801  by Pneudyne
 
The second two (of four) pages on the Model B from the GM brochure:
GM DE Locos p.15.jpg
GM DE Locos p.15.jpg (398.66 KiB) Viewed 541 times
GM DE Locos p.16.jpg
GM DE Locos p.16.jpg (899.17 KiB) Viewed 541 times

Cheers,
 #1635825  by Pneudyne
 
jamoldover wrote: Mon Jan 01, 2024 11:19 am So basically an EMD version of ALCo's "World Locomotive" FA variant.

It might be slightly easier to argue the negative on that proposition.

Firstly, on the timeline:

I do not know when the EMD B was first announced, but the first order, 40 of the A1A-A1A variant for the then Eastern Bengal Railway, was recorded in ‘Diesel Railway Traction’ (DRT) 1952 September. Initial delivery was expected in 1953 May.

The initial EFVM, Brasil order for the B-B variant was recorded in DRT 1953 January.

The Alco-GE “World” locomotive (DL-500), as it then was, was announced in Railway Age 1953 June 22. That was just ahead of the split between Alco and GE, so actual production was under Alco aegis.

Independently of Alco, GE had been building export cab units (of the shovel-nose style) since 1949. Variously these ranged from metre to broad gauge, had Cooper Bessemer FVL-12T or Alco 12-244 engines, were single- or double-ended, and had A1A-A1A, C-C or C-2-C running gear.

Secondly, on locomotive power, dimensions and weight:

The EMD B, at 1310 hp, could be said to have been a “size” smaller than the 1600 hp Alco DL-500. At 157 000 lb (B-B), 167 000 lb (A1A-A1A) it was significantly lighter than the 211 500 lb DL-500 (C-C). It had a slightly slimmer profile, as well, better suiting it to many Cape/metre gauge situations. As far as I know, although offered for gauges from metre upwards, the DL-500 was never built for less than standard gauge. On the other hand, the EMD B was built only in metre gauge form, although available for wider gauges.

I have never found information as to the exact origins of the EMD model B. The model G was conceived quite early on, as recorded in that well-circulated 1951 June letter from EMD to its overseas associates. Possibly the B was an offshoot of the G programme, at a time when it appeared that some overseas railways still had a preference for cab units. Body style aside, the B was certainly similar to the G-12. It had a longer frame, 44’6’ as compared with 43’0”, with corresponding longer truck centres, 26’6” as compared with 25’0”, but the equipment was essentially the same with a similar, although not identical, layout. As an aside, the 44’6”/26’6” dimensions were used by Clyde, Australia for its version of the G, ostensibly to meet Queensland Railways’ request for a larger fuel tank.



Cheers,
 #1635831  by AllenPHazen
 
Thank you, Pneudyne, for the wealth of information about (what are now) obscure EMD types!
(Remark: The brochure you have posted says the Model B used the 567C engine, which (in domestic production) was introduced ?? late in 1953 ?? (was first standard on models -- E/F/GP/SD-9, SW 900 and SW 1200 -- introduced at the start of 1954). So maybe the brochure is for an updated/improved version of the model you say was ordered in 1952?)
---
When British Rail and its political masters decided to "modernize" in the late 1950s, the major American diesel locomotive manufacturers -- I think I've read that Alco and EMD were both interested, and I think with a bit less confidence that GE was mentioned -- were interested, and at least some factions in BR (BTC?) would have been happy to go with them. I have never seen any details of what they offered: I don't know how far the proposals went, or if detailed specifications of locomotive designs were prepared. But it's a topic of "alternative history" that intrigues me.
The relevant period would have been the late 1950s, so British EMD locomotives would have used 567C engines. The 16 cylinder version could have been used to power something roughly equivalent to BR's Class 37. (The Class 37 and the GP-9 are both listed as 1750 horsepower locomotives, but given the different conventions for rated horsepower, the GP-9 is probably a bit more powerful... but the English Electric engine in the Class 37 was set for a very low output: lower than used in some contemporary British-built export locomotives. So: roughly equivalent.) And the Class 37 was one of the most successful of the BR "Modernization scheme" designs.
The 12 cylinder 567C... I think the Model B you have been describing is relevant here. BR liked dual cab designs, so put a second cab on the other end. The A1A variant would then be comparable to BR's Class 30/Class 31. (We could, for fantasy purposes, call it a "Class 32".). ... So (until the frequency of repair data began to come in) this might seem like a case where the EMD offering wouldn't have been an obvious technical winner: the Class 30 was built in decent numbers, but BR clearly preferred (and bought more of) the somewhat shorter, lighter, and more powerful Class 33 (a B-B design).
As for the 8-cylinder 567C, we almost don't have to imagine! Cross the Irish Sea, and CIE's 121 class (single cab: EMD model GL8W) and 141 class (two cab: EMD model JL8W) were successful and long-lived locomotives on the Irish national railways!
--
(I've long been enamoured of the books of the 141 class, and BR never seems to have used the class numbers 18 and 19, which would be about right for an 8-567C powered unit. I find myself imagining a model railroad "module" of an English country station, with a "BR Class 19" unit, in full blue with yellow ends and the white Railmark on its sides, at the head of a short train...)