Railroad Forums
New 645's
- Discussion of Electro-Motive locomotive products and technology, past and present. Official web site can be found here: http://www.emdiesels.com/.
Moderator: GOLDEN-ARM
GE manufactures them in Poland. The engine itself is a little further removed from the EMD-produced line bearing the same numerical designation than one might think. Morrison-Knudsen needed a backwards-compatible (with EMD parts) engine block to put inside SD45s they were rebuilding to SD40-2 specifications, and they didn't want to pay EMD for anything. The engine used in the recent MPI commuter engines is the result. (The design and production rights ending up in GE's hands is the result of MK's bankrupcy and subsequent asset liquidation) Since it was originally engineered with making SD40-2 clones in mind, I don't think a 12-cylinder version was ever produced.
That old car might be worth money!
Interesting. I'm assuming GE is still making them as MPI has recieved recent orders for the MP36. Im suprised they're getting 3600 hp out of a 16 cyl engine.
Don't be TOO surprised that they can get 3600 hp out of a 16-645. That was, after all, the rating of the 16-645F in late-production SD50. I think the new blocks from GE's Polish friends are cast rather than welded-- they are, anyway, very likely more robust than the original EMD design (hey, MK would have WANTED to be able to say their stuff was BETTER than OEM, not "just as good"!), so engine stresses shouldn't be a worry.
Tier II air pollution standards might be more of a problem. My guess is that they involve careful tweaking of the fuel injection etc etc etc and (there ain't being no such thing as a free lunch) I'd be willing to lay a small bet that fuel efficiency isn't great. (But that's just an outsider's guess: I'd be willing to lay a SMALL bet. Like maybe a quarter.)
Tier II air pollution standards might be more of a problem. My guess is that they involve careful tweaking of the fuel injection etc etc etc and (there ain't being no such thing as a free lunch) I'd be willing to lay a small bet that fuel efficiency isn't great. (But that's just an outsider's guess: I'd be willing to lay a SMALL bet. Like maybe a quarter.)
Forget Tier II,the EPA's already working on Tier III and likely IV at this time, and they're saying that such regularions might be enacted and take effect starting in 2010.
They're talking big reductions, too. You'll probbably see catalysts and all that on (new) locomotives within 5 years.
And forget the GM 2 stroke design - it'll fail on HCs pure and simple.
(Why do you think GM waited until after the H engine was a bonafied flop to dump EMD? Back to the drawing board or a quick few hundred million?)
They're talking big reductions, too. You'll probbably see catalysts and all that on (new) locomotives within 5 years.
And forget the GM 2 stroke design - it'll fail on HCs pure and simple.
(Why do you think GM waited until after the H engine was a bonafied flop to dump EMD? Back to the drawing board or a quick few hundred million?)
Note that Tier 4 will take place in 2015, and will REQUIRE the use of catalytic aftertreatment.
My guesses:
* EMD will be out of the new locomotive bussiness by 2010.
* GE will have to update the GEVO by 2015.
* You may see a few European firms try to get in, via switcher and passenger applications.
* Mainline electrification might not look so bad, once the costs of buying/maintaining Tier 4 spec locomotives gets looked at. Don't forget that there's likely to be a LOT of new nuke plants coming on line by then. Cheap electricity + expensive diesels + carbon credits + the unknowns of the recent SCOTUS ruling, might be the thing that gets the ball rolling.
* You'll see a period of interesting things.
* The EPA is'nt going to listen to the whining of the RR industry. especially when trucking, etc has to do this, too.
My guesses:
* EMD will be out of the new locomotive bussiness by 2010.
* GE will have to update the GEVO by 2015.
* You may see a few European firms try to get in, via switcher and passenger applications.
* Mainline electrification might not look so bad, once the costs of buying/maintaining Tier 4 spec locomotives gets looked at. Don't forget that there's likely to be a LOT of new nuke plants coming on line by then. Cheap electricity + expensive diesels + carbon credits + the unknowns of the recent SCOTUS ruling, might be the thing that gets the ball rolling.
* You'll see a period of interesting things.
* The EPA is'nt going to listen to the whining of the RR industry. especially when trucking, etc has to do this, too.
Nasadowsk wrote:Note that Tier 4 will take place in 2015, and will REQUIRE the use of catalytic aftertreatment.I wouldn't be so quick to write off EMD. Besides, people have been saying EMDs couldn't pass EPA tier requirements for as long as I can remember, but they just keep chugging along. Is there not a UP SD60 running right now in California with exhaust after treatment installed? If that technology will work on an SD60, who knows how effective it could be on a SD70ACe?. Second, I seriously doubt there will be any new nuke plants online by 2015. If you announced plans to build one today, it would take about that long just to get approval to build it, IF you could get approval at all.
My guesses:
* EMD will be out of the new locomotive bussiness by 2010.
* GE will have to update the GEVO by 2015.
* You may see a few European firms try to get in, via switcher and passenger applications.
* Mainline electrification might not look so bad, once the costs of buying/maintaining Tier 4 spec locomotives gets looked at. Don't forget that there's likely to be a LOT of new nuke plants coming on line by then.
junction tower wrote:I wouldn't be so quick to write off EMD. Besides, people have been saying EMDs couldn't pass EPA tier requirements for as long as I can remember, but they just keep chugging along. Is there not a UP SD60 running right now in California with exhaust after treatment installed? If that technology will work on an SD60, who knows how effective it could be on a SD70ACe?. Second, I seriously doubt there will be any new nuke plants online by 2015. If you announced plans to build one today, it would take about that long just to get approval to build it, IF you could get approval at all.Several plants have already gotten their early site permits, actually, and are expected to file for their construction and operating licenses next year. They plan to start pumping out electricity in 2012 or 13, according to this link. Still, that wouldn't be enough juice for massive mainline electrification. You're going to see plenty more EMDs, as well as Green Goats, Wabtec/MPs, and GEs with diesel prime movers.
One thing I've wondered is why Caterpillar hasn't kept trying to buy out EMD. They seem like a natural fit - Cat has the prime movers and the cash for new design work, and EMD has the need for both, as well as specialized experience with electric drive systems that could be applied throughout the Cat line of heavy equipment.
I LOVE nuclear power, but I'll believe it when those plants actually go on line. The nimby crowd will howl like there is no tomorrow. If mainline electrification comes to pass, my days as a railfan are over. I have zero interest in watching electric cho-choos glide silently by under a bird's next of wires. That would be like watching electric race cars.