The EMD Situation

[Nasadowsk]

<i>In 1976 Someone high up in the food chain at EMD decided that computers were a passing fad, and EMD would not build micro processor units.</i>

I wouldn't be too hard on 'em. In '76, the microprocessor was still a new concept, and the support chips weren't really there. It took the Z-80 to really get things going (it had a ram interface that reduced the parts count drastically, plus a good list of fairly decen support chips). A/D converters were still really expensive and not that great (16 bits? No. And certainly NOT linear.) 7400 series logic was popular but evolving (Today, it's still the defacto series of logic, still very popular, and TTL is THE standard).

By 1980, the arguements against it were thin. By 1985, only a luddite would have avoided it.

Given the rapid evolving micro market, lack of a clear leader, and development tools not being cheap, I can imagine GM was a bit cautious, though in typical GM fashion, I find it amazing that they weren't sourcing loco computers from Delco, who makes stuff that's so bulletproof that aerospace companie seek out their services. Really, when was the last time you had to reboot your car?

[ExEMDLOCOTester]

<i>In 1976 Someone high up in the food chain at EMD decided that computers were a passing fad, and EMD would not build micro processor units.</i>

I wouldn't be too hard on 'em. In '76, the microprocessor was still a new concept, and the support chips weren't really there. It took the Z-80 to really get things going (it had a ram interface that reduced the parts count drastically, plus a good list of fairly decen support chips). A/D converters were still really expensive and not that great (16 bits? No. And certainly NOT linear.) 7400 series logic was popular but evolving (Today, it's still the defacto series of logic, still very popular, and TTL is THE standard).

By 1980, the arguements against it were thin. By 1985, only a luddite would have avoided it.

Given the rapid evolving micro market, lack of a clear leader, and development tools not being cheap, I can imagine GM was a bit cautious, though in typical GM fashion, I find it amazing that they weren't sourcing loco computers from Delco, who makes stuff that's so bulletproof that aerospace companie seek out their services. Really, when was the last time you had to reboot your car?

Numerical Controllers and Programable Logic Controllers were already in the market place. Granted they were not fast enough to control traction current but sufficient to control isolation relays for most of the control circuits. EMD R&D would have stepped up to the challange and again revolutionized the Railroad Industry instead of playing catch up. Yes they were cautious about releasing rapid change to the market place but applying this caution to R&D was not the best decision carried out at EMD.

[rdganthracite]

Backorders? Ever heard "don't count the chickens, before they're hatched"? I agree with the posting, of approximately 2 to 1, on deliveries. Delivered locos pull freight, not locos on backorder. Deliver concrete facts, supporting the 7 to 1 ratio, as well as the plans for current owners, to "gut" EMD, or sell that junk somewhere else. Wild rumors, false statements, and completely unsupportable speculations, will not be allowed, here on this forum. This forum is "Pro-EMD", and tall tales, of the planned demise, won't be allowed here. Back your claims, or watch the topic be locked, or deleted. Thanks, the "Mod-Squad".

Demanding that any discussion on this forum be "Pro-EMD" is as bad as the "Wild rumors, false statements,....." that you are ranting about. These forums should be neither for nor against the subject topics. They are ABOUT the topics, no matter if the news is good or bad. And yes the statements made must be factual, any reasonable person would agree with that. But threatening to delete or lock any discussion that is not "Pro" a certain agenda turns these forums into farces.

[mxdata]

Since it is now beginning to look like EMD may have a chance to be around longer than General Motors, I just thought I would bring this topic back up nearer the top of the list.

MX

[RickRackstop]

Since it is now beginning to look like EMD may have a chance to be around longer than General Motors, I just thought I would bring this topic back up nearer the top of the list.

MX

Not to mention Detroit Diesel, Fridgidaire, Terex, Allison {Gas turbine division sold to Rolls Royce), Hughes Aircraft, Ross Perot's EDS , and GMAC. GM management has been on cruise control since Sloan and Kettering retired over 50 years ago. Except for Fridgidaire and GMAC none of these companies sell to the general public. For EMD in particular some customers may be relying 100% on a single piece of EMD equipment to make a living. A problem with an engine on a dredge comes to mind this required liberating parts from an test cell engine and there was no paper work. Unlike trucking companies and most railroads they can't park the inoperative item and substitute another, its the only thing they have. I think EMD management I'm sure condoned these midnight requisitions because they frequently knew the customer personally. Its a much different business environment than GM faces. So the customer is happy and none of this got reported to Detroit and they should have been happy also.

[RickRackstop]

EMD announced on Jan 6 that they completed the French homologation process to run EMD's Class 66 locomotive in France. The result is that Euro Cargo Rail has ordered 60 new units.

The class 66 design is designed for low clearances in England and is about 3 feet lower than North American style locomotives. It has 2 end cabs and essentially a Euro SD 40 with the steerable trucks and a 12-710 providing the power. They run all over northern Europe and have been a huge success.

[mxdata]

Here is a link to a recent news item:

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/Business/20 ... 6-sun.html

I would suggest taking a look at the decline in auto, steel, and other carloadings cited in the last two paragraphs of the article. It gives you some insight into just how bad this "recession" is likely to be.

MX

[trainiac]

As an update on recent events, the global economic crisis has had a negative impact on EMD (as well as GE, to a lesser extent). They will be cutting a large portion of their workforce in London--about two thirds of the 900 employees in London will be laid off, some temporarily. EMD does have orders to fill, including a recent CN order for SD70M-2's as well as export units, but it appears to be a fraction of what they've been building over the last few years.

However, it's worth noting that prior to the economic crisis, things at EMD were actually pretty rosy. SD70M-2 and SD70ACe sales have been very successful, even if they've been outsold by GE. In fact, they have helped create record sales and growth at EMD over the last few years--they've already sold 60% as many SD70M-2 and SD70ACe units in 5 years as the earlier SD70 (I, M and MAC) series sold in 12 years.

Much of what I wrote comes from here:
http://www.lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Lo ... 1-sun.html

**Edit: My math was off: they've sold closer to 40% of previous SD70 totals--so overall, selling at roughly the same rate. However, about half of all pre-2005 SD70 production went to UP.

[Allen Hazen]

(((Off topic, but I think Michael has just set a good example of how to post news to the forum: he gives (and gives a link to) his source (in this case an article in a London, Ontario, newspaper) but also summarizes it to bring out the important points. Would that we all posted in such a helpful format!)))

[Super Seis]

I wonder if comparing EMD & GE iproduction s a fair comparison, as I suspect that EMDs' profitability is probably linked to a smaller number of units produced.

SS

[EMD Engineer]

Wild rumors, false statements, and completely unsupportable speculations, will not be allowed, here on this forum. This forum is "Pro-EMD", and tall tales, of the planned demise, won't be allowed here. Back your claims, or watch the topic be locked, or deleted. Thanks, the "Mod-Squad".

Your post has motivated me to register and thank you for your support. Though I do not expect to be around this forum too much, I figured I should let you guys know that EMD is very much around, and is not going anywhere for a long, long time.

Our sale from GM is probably the best thing that has happened to EMD in recent history. Who knows what Greenbriar and Berkshire intend to do with EMD in the future (anything you here at this point is speculation and nothing else). However, they are finally fixing GM's wrongs and investing money back into EMD instead of sucking it off to help all the other divisions. To be honest, walking around EMD you rarely even hear the names of the companies that own us. We pretty much operate independently now.

Yes the economic times are hurting us a bit, but who isn't hurting? Our new capital investments are continuing (if not accelerating), and our projections and plans are all expecting the business to come back, and come back strong. We are taking this slow down opportunity to 'fix' everything we can and make our manufacturing more capable, more efficient, more consistent, and more reliable.

ANY rumor you hear of 'the two stroke' going away is flat out false, period. Take it from somebody on the inside, this engine isn't going anywhere. We still make thousands of parts every month for 645 engines that are decades old. There is absolutely no reason for the 710 engine to suddenly disappear. Also look for the 4 stroke 'H' engine to start making more appearances around the world in the near future.

Again, thank you for your support of EMD. It's great to know that we have an excellent fan base out there.

[trainwayne1]

EMD Engineer.....Thanks for a very informative post. As someone who ran 645 equipped units on the EL in the late 60's and early 70's I can attest to their toughness and dependability.
A quick question if you might have time.....Does EMD have a means to accept questions/comments from active railroad operating employees?

[RickRackstop]

EMD Engineer.....Thanks for a very informative post. As someone who ran 645 equipped units on the EL in the late 60's and early 70's I can attest to their toughness and dependability.
A quick question if you might have time.....Does EMD have a means to accept questions/comments from active railroad operating employees?

Yes and no. EMD has a locomotive service dept. and has regional "District Engineers" that visit the customers facilities on a regular basis to consult on any problems or warranty issues. So you would have to go through the railroads service manager or a purchasing agent the talk with them.

[EMD Engineer]

EMD Engineer.....Thanks for a very informative post. As someone who ran 645 equipped units on the EL in the late 60's and early 70's I can attest to their toughness and dependability.
A quick question if you might have time.....Does EMD have a means to accept questions/comments from active railroad operating employees?

Rickrack is correct. We can't possibly go to every employee of every railroad out there. It is the railroad's job to filter through the suggestions they get and forward on the best ones to us. Every single locomotive we make is customized to the railroad's request. seeing as how many of the customizations are cab related, I'm sure their requests are driven by recommendations/comments/suggestions from their employees.

[trainwayne1]

EMD Engineer.....Thanks for a very informative post. As someone who ran 645 equipped units on the EL in the late 60's and early 70's I can attest to their toughness and dependability.
A quick question if you might have time.....Does EMD have a means to accept questions/comments from active railroad operating employees?

Rickrack is correct. We can't possibly go to every employee of every railroad out there. It is the railroad's job to filter through the suggestions they get and forward on the best ones to us. Every single locomotive we make is customized to the railroad's request. seeing as how many of the customizations are cab related, I'm sure their requests are driven by recommendations/comments/suggestions from their employees.

Thanks....I appreciate the info.