Santa Fe 185L

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SSW9389
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Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:22 am
Location: Shelbyville, Kentucky

Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW9389 » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:36 am

This March I picked up a copy of Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail. There's a photo of a very interesting FT A unit on page 450. I've stated that it's really an F7Am, and don't you know that started several brouhahas with Santa Fe experts. It appears to have been rebuilt at Cleburne in late 1951 or early 1952. I'm searching for wreck photos and details. Several photos of the wrecked 185L have been posted to Trainorders, but not the profile view necessary to determine frame damage.

If you find photos of this interesting unit look at the position of the trucks. Both appear to be forward of their normal position on an FT A unit. And note the amount of frame overhang at the back of the unit.

Does anyone have the as-built plans for EMD order E709, that's the order that the 185L, ex 179C was built on in August 1945.

Thanks for any reply,

Ed in Kentucky
COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!

swissrailfan
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:36 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by swissrailfan » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:55 pm

The FT internal layout is completely different. The FT would have been completely gutted and start from scratch to have anything similar to a F3 or F7. ATSF had the square dynamic brake box on the roof of the FT The D4 generator would not accept a higher rating so that will mean a new D12 generator or the HP stays at 1350HP as in the GP7m built from a wrecked trade in FT.

SSW921
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Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW921 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 6:34 am

My point about the rebuilding of the 185L is that it was rebuilt on a new F7 underframe. The F7 was over two feet longer than an FT and had a longer wheelbase. And that's why a decent profile photo is needed to identify where the trucks are in relation to the carbody.

FT units used the D8 generator, not the D4.

Ed in Kentucky

swissrailfan
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Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:36 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by swissrailfan » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:35 pm

The D4 main generator was used in all FT,F2.E3 thru 7 unless a trade in locomotive was used. as in ATSF E8 that used the GE 5GT544 main generator from trade in locomotives.The E8 thru 9 used the D12 main generator. F3 thru F7 GP7 used the D12, F9, GP9 and E9 used the D14 main generator and again unless other generators used from trade in locomotives.

SSW921
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW921 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:58 am

It was the D8 generator that was used on all FTs and F2s. The D4 was used with the 1000 horsepower 567 and 567A engines. See "All About F's" by Don Dover in the January 1970 issue of Extra 2200 South. I have Folio sheets from two railroads showing D8 generators in FTs, there are likely more Folio sheets online which will show that same fact.

The D12 was a main generator, the D14 was a companion alternator for accessories.

Ed in Kentucky

SSW921
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW921 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:35 am

There's a .pdf file on the Northern Pacific Railroad Historical Association site that has the FT folio sheet showing the D8 generator. It's on page 2 of the Folio diagrams: http://www.nprha.org/Pages/Equipment.as ... ocomotives

Ed in Kentucky

SSW921
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Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW921 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:55 am

Just found a third EMD document that was sent to me by Preston Cook years ago. The EMD plate drawing 2888 is for Santa Fe FTs delivered in February 1942. The generator shown on the EMD document is the D8.

Ed in Kentucky

SSW921
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW921 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:35 pm

swissrailfan wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:35 pm
The D4 main generator was used in all FT,F2.E3 thru 7 unless a trade in locomotive was used. as in ATSF E8 that used the GE 5GT544 main generator from trade in locomotives.The E8 thru 9 used the D12 main generator. F3 thru F7 GP7 used the D12, F9, GP9 and E9 used the D14 main generator and again unless other generators used from trade in locomotives.
The generator used on the E8 was the D15A with companion D16 alternator for accessories. The generator used on the E9 was the D15B also with the D16 companion alternator. Source Extra 2200 South Issue #43 p.19 Spec-Profile. The F9 and GP9 used the D12 generator with the D14 companion alternator.

Ed in Kentucky

swissrailfan
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Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by swissrailfan » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:19 am

All my information is correct and is from 2005 thu 2015 from extra 2200 south issue 130 and from classic trains 2015. I took your information and researched it from historical documents and found nothing about a D8 main generator. Since some your information is over 30 plus years old there have been corrections to publications you have submitted. I can not find anything from EMC/EMD that refers to a D8 main generator for locomotive, standby,submarine,ship or any other application.In 1939 with a war looming on the horizon that EMC would not manufacture 2 exact same generators General Motors which purchased EMC and Winton motors in 1930 was not going to invest money in a fledgling company. EMC was an experimental company for GM that eventually with the FT deliveries starting in 1940 helped railroads save money. WW2 war resource restrictions to keep common parts available for all. By the time the restrictions were lifted in 1944 the FT was at the end of production in 1945 The replacement was the F3 with the D12 main generator. Not withstanding the glitch with the D12 and the F2 was a stop gap measure to keep production line running. This is my research for the FT.and my opinions.

SSW921
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW921 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:18 pm

swissrailfan wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:19 am
All my information is correct and is from 2005 thu 2015 from extra 2200 south issue 130 and from classic trains 2015. I took your information and researched it from historical documents and found nothing about a D8 main generator. Since some your information is over 30 plus years old there have been corrections to publications you have submitted. I can not find anything from EMC/EMD that refers to a D8 main generator for locomotive, standby,submarine,ship or any other application.In 1939 with a war looming on the horizon that EMC would not manufacture 2 exact same generators General Motors which purchased EMC and Winton motors in 1930 was not going to invest money in a fledgling company. EMC was an experimental company for GM that eventually with the FT deliveries starting in 1940 helped railroads save money. WW2 war resource restrictions to keep common parts available for all. By the time the restrictions were lifted in 1944 the FT was at the end of production in 1945 The replacement was the F3 with the D12 main generator. Not withstanding the glitch with the D12 and the F2 was a stop gap measure to keep production line running. This is my research for the FT.and my opinions.
The 2015 F unit issue in Classic Trains has multiple errors in it. Go to the Classic Trains forum and find the "F unit fact checking" thread. The majority of my research is from primary source documents, not from books. Including EMD documents that show D8 as the correct generator for the FT series of locomotives. Follow the link I sent to the Northern Pacific Historic site and see the D8 listed on the NP FTs. The D4 was only good for 1000 tractive HP and was not used on the FT.
Last edited by SSW921 on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SSW921
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW921 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:41 pm

Diesel Era Volume 7 Number 2 (March/April 1996) has the "EMD's F2-An Interim Model" by Calloway, Cupper & Withers. On page 31 of that article it states, "Although EMD intended to offer the F2 model as early as 1946, problems with development of the D12 generator caused its delay. Rather than stop all freight-locomotive production, EMD decided to offer the F2 with older D8 generator, while retaining the FT's 1,350 horsepower rating." . . . Obviously Mssrs. Calloway, Cupper & Withers found documentation about the D8 generator and included it in the first page of their F2 article.

Ed in Kentucky
Last edited by SSW921 on Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SSW921
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW921 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:50 pm

Here is an old advertisement with D8 main generators for sale! https://www.sssalesandleasing.com/blog/ ... r-sale.php

From my research the D8 was used on all types of FTs, TR1s, F2s and an order of Cotton Belt SW1200s. It would be interesting to find out what other applications are found of this main generator.

SSW921
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW921 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:15 pm

The F unit fact checking thread started March 9, 2015 by yours truly: http://cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/245289.aspx

You need to be a member of that forum to view.

Ed in Kentucky

SSW921
Posts: 70
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Santa Fe 185L

Post by SSW921 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:35 am

swissrailfan wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:19 am
All my information is correct and is from 2005 thu 2015 from extra 2200 south issue 130 and from classic trains 2015. I took your information and researched it from historical documents and found nothing about a D8 main generator. Since some your information is over 30 plus years old there have been corrections to publications you have submitted. I can not find anything from EMC/EMD that refers to a D8 main generator for locomotive, standby,submarine,ship or any other application. . . . This is my research for the FT.and my opinions.
Cite a source, without citations your opinions mean nothing to a historian.

Ed in Kentucky

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