Via and Amtrak?

[CN9634]

Has anyone ever seen Via and Amtrak mixed consists? If so are there any pictures?

[jp1822]

The International that travelled from Chicago to Toronto had either VIA equipment one day or Amfleet equipment on another day - back in the early days. There could have possibly been VIA or Amtrak power on the point with VIA or Amtrak coaches behind it - making it a mixed to a degree. But for the most part I think they tried to keep the revenue coaches either all VIA or all Amtrak. But there may have been some odd days of operating with mixed coaches - not sure. But again, you'd have to go back in the International's history.

The Adirondack ran with a ex-CP (now VIA) Skyline dome with essentially Amtrak Heritage equipment. Amtrak/D&H leased two Skyline Dome cars to operate on this service north of Albany - similiar to what is currently being done today with the Great Dome, but not on an every other day cycle like present.

I think VIA could probably lend their expertise to the fixing of Amtrak's single level Heritage equipment. But of course not much is left now - just the diners and baggage cars for the most part. But the Heritage crew cars could probably have went to Canada for an overhaul - and overhauled based on FRA standards - if Amtrak wanted to keep them in service. Now these cars were restored and put into service for the GAO office.....go figure. VIA probably could have taken some Heritage sleepers from Amtrak and restored them to FRA requirements - retention tanks and all, as is now operated with VIA's ex-CP stainless steel Budd cars (that Amtrak would dub Heritage equipment). It's too bad VIA and Amtrak couldn't have worked more closely together on its Heritage equipment. Obviously VIA had the "know how" as what Amtrak considers Heritage equipment basically makes up the backbone of VIA's long distance and some corridor train sets - VIA's Canadian most importantly!

VIA and Amtrak - two companies that should have worked more closely together. VIA sort of tried by "testing out the Amtrak Superliner." But the Canadians didn't really go for it. Restoring what is now 50+ year old Heritage equipment was the way they went. Then of course they added in some UK purchased rail cars VIA has dubbed the Renaissance fleet - coaches, sleepers, diners, baggage cars, transition car etc. Freed up ex-CP stainless steel Budd equipment on the route of the Ocean, while the Chaleur retained its Budd equipment, despite original plans to equip both trains with Renaissance equipment. Perhaps that was to come with the stored Renaissance cars that are not to be! Money ran out!

[dave_van]

One of the biggest problems with mixing Amtrak and Via equipment is the differences in the HEP wiring. There is a phasing difference that if an Amtrak wired car is powered by a Via locomotive every motor, transformer, and other circuits will get burned out. There are adaptor connectors available in some terminals and some private car owners have a few but, for the most part they are very hard to find or make on short notice. True a few Amtrak 10-6 cars were leased by VIA years ago but before the cars went into service I am sure they went through the shop for a rewire

[jp1822]

It's my understanding a VIA car (with its wiring and such) could be tacked onto the back of a consist without a problem or any special cabeling.

[dave_van]

I would be willing to bet that the Via car tacked onto the rear of an Amtrak powered consist had an adapter. The only reason I know about this is I have a friend who placed his Amtrak approved PV on a VIA powered train a few years back and promptly did about $10,000 damage to the electrical system of his car. Basically he replaced all the motors on his car along with a few other smaller items. He was sure happy that the car didn't catch fire, it could have very easily.

[Tadman]

From my August 1995 International trip - Niles, MI to Toronton, ON:

Consist was
(1) Via F40PH
(1) Cafe Amfleet w/ b-class half
(4) Horizon hi-density coaches
(3) Via Heritage Budd Cars (added at Windsor)

So yes, there was mixed consists, especially after the border. I looked at some photos I took which I found over the holiday at my parents' house showing the Via power on the train. However, I live 700 miles away now so cannot easily scan/post. I also remember the horizon coaches all had swing-open doors rather than slide-open, because Via crews can't open the slide-doors after they've iced up in winter. Finally, it's worth noting that, in Amtrak's eyes, this was a Chicago-Port Huron train which meant hi-density cars. Big mistake. Most people going to Toronto would like a little more space. Toronto is geographically like travelling to Buffalo, KC, or Mnpls/StP. It's a long way in hi-density horizon cars.

[Raakone]

Windsor? Don't you mean Sarnia? (The International never went via Windsor, although it was once proposed to do so)

I read that the second "Niagara Rainbow" (overnight Maple Leaf, not the previous one that linked Detroit and New York) had VIA Rail's niagara-Toronto train added to it once in Canada, forget push-pull, the result was a "pushme-pullyou" train, with VIA equipment at one end, Amtrak at the other...and electrical isolation between the two parts (not sure what they'd do about PA announcements, unless that could be linked).

[viahogger]

Via equipment was often placed on the rear of the Via/Amtrak International. The Via equipment would be removed at Sarnia and placed in the Tempo yard just East of the Sarnia station. When I hired on in 88' I recall Tempo equipment being the trailing Via equipment and in later years HEP 1 cars. I also seem to recall some of Via's F40PH-2's being equipped with a Amtrak/Via selector switch on the back wall of the cab. If Via equipment was being handled it was placed in the Via position and vice versa for Amtrak only.

On the overnight Toronto- NewYork train the Via equipment would trail leaving Toronto and provide it's own HEP power. At the time not many of the Amtrak cars had MU cables and none of the Via HEP 1 cars had MU cables still don't today. So all the pulling was done by the engine up front. I don't remember if the blue communication cables were attached but I don't see why they wouldn't have been as all Via and Amtrak cars had them at the time just not sure if there would have been compatibility problems. I seem to recall the train coming in Saturday morning to Toronto with the Via equipment trailing and left Sunday night again with the Via equipment trailing thus eliminating the need to wye on two night's for #95's crew.

[AgentSkelly]

Didn't the Maple Leaf run for a bit as a mixed consist in the 90s? I swear I have seen a photo of the Maple leaf with a Amtrak F40 with 2 Amfleets then 2 VIA Budd coaches with a VIA F40 on the end. I think the VIA end was facing Toronto and the Amtrak end facing NY (yes, I know, its a clever but lame thing).

[Silverliner II]

Finally, it's worth noting that, in Amtrak's eyes, this was a Chicago-Port Huron train which meant hi-density cars. Big mistake. Most people going to Toronto would like a little more space. Toronto is geographically like travelling to Buffalo, KC, or Mnpls/StP. It's a long way in hi-density horizon cars.

Of course, up till a couple years ago, the current Maple Leaf ran with hi-density Amfleet I coaches. Made for a long ride from New York to Toronto the times I've ridden it.

The current consist is Amfleet II coaches with legrest seats and larger windows (with an Amfleet I cafe).

I'm not sure how the cabling is arranged, but Amtrak (and other U.S. passenger ops) run HEP at 480kv. What voltage does VIA use (I heard that GO uses 575-volt HEP; Amtrak had to re-wire the ex-GO F40PH's to 480 when they acquired them).

I think VIA could probably lend their expertise to the fixing of Amtrak's single level Heritage equipment. But of course not much is left now - just the diners and baggage cars for the most part. But the Heritage crew cars could probably have went to Canada for an overhaul - and overhauled based on FRA standards - if Amtrak wanted to keep them in service....It's too bad VIA and Amtrak couldn't have worked more closely together on its Heritage equipment. Obviously VIA had the "know how" as what Amtrak considers Heritage equipment basically makes up the backbone of VIA's long distance and some corridor train sets - VIA's Canadian most importantly!

A number of the HEP-II coaches running on VIA corridor trains were indeed former Amtrak coaches.

Amtrak had the "know how" to rebuild the Heritage Fleet. But they didn't have the capital to do it. Also, our cars were still in somewhat worse shape overall thanks to previous decades of inadequate maintenance; as it is, VIA had to do a ton of work on the ones they did get. And I have to say I am impressed with the result, having now gotten to ride quite a few trains between Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, and London over the last four years. Had the deadline for retention toilets not loomed so quickly (and Amtrak not had such a tight equipment situation not allowing for cars to be out for rebuilds), I think Amtrak would have kept their Budd coaches a little longer...

Someone mentioned VIA forcing Amtrak to change the doors on the Horizon cars to conventional Dutch doors due to problems with icing in the winter. What about the LRC coaches...their doors slide open, as do the ones on the GO trains, just for an example. I'm wondering if there was yet another reason. Especially since Amtrak didn't change all the doors on all the cars (plenty of our Horizon cars still have sliders at one end and Dutch doors at the other...

[buddah]

Yes it is as said before VIA locomotives can power there own cars and AMTK cars with no compatibility issues, but Amtrak locomotives are not compatible with VIAs equipment. I would also second the motion for the international to be brought back, As a matter of fact I'm working a research organization that at this moment were drafting a purposed train for that route, it to run through detroit/windsor not sarnia/port huron. with a new intermediate Amtrak station to be built across from MCS in Detroit, for customs. Id see this new route also serving Toledo since there a major city that has no daytime passenger Amtrak service. I use to ride the International at least once every month. I was actually on the final run from Toronto to Chicago in 2004 and I found the superliners in the winter quite comfortable but the mix match amfleet I and horizon fleet cars in the summer were nothing more than a joke, and showed how this route was mismanaged and under appreciated. The maple leaf ALWAYS has amfleet cars. Also Via rail chose the worst route sarnia to toronto not on there main corridor because the train used superliner cars which the VIA crew loved but Management was scared of because of there speed restrictions on those cars, and there height. ( VIA management doesn't want anything that tall). For Locomotive power what need to be done is for Amtrak and VIA rail to do a joint locomotive project for ALL there international train runs (except cascades). Modify specific locomotives to have a hep converter / regulator built in, be able to use 3rd rail power if available, and cab control and signaling that could be used on both sides of the border with a ATC system. Lets see... What could we use?.. ooh yea.. Amtrak still has a handfull of P40's stored as dead in Bear deleware. It couldn't hurt now could it.

[Kaback9]

buddah, I really like your idea for a new International and rebuilding of some of the P40 fleet for this route. If money should come Amtraks way I would love to see you send your proposal in to them.

[Tadman]

I think Amtrak and Via always looked at the International as a train that ran CHI-Port Huron and Sarnia - Toronto, respectively. They never thought of it as a 13 hour train, requiring LD coaches. Instead we got corridor coaches which don't really work for a 13 hour ride.

[Kaback9]

Tad I have to agree with you but at the same time I say look at the Adirondack which has been sadly operating with A1s for way to long.

[Tadman]

Silverliner, that was me that mentioned Via forcing Amtrak to change from sliders to swingers on Horizons. It was what the conductor told me as I watched him struggle mid-august with a Horizon equipped with slider doors. I guess it was just a poor design compared to LRC? I notice when lake effect snow is around, Amtrak also equips the Pere Marquette with Superliners because the usual horizons ice up too fast.