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Crude oil trains on CN derailing doesn't help!
Railroad Forums
Possible Reroute for The Canadian
- Discussion of Canadian Passenger Rail Services such as AMT (Montreal), Go Transit (Toronto), VIA Rail, and other Canadian Railways and Transit
Moderator: Ken V
IF CN is that congested,VIA should reroute to the CP,it's a shame the Canadian is not running right now.
Crude oil trains on CN derailing doesn't help!
Crude oil trains on CN derailing doesn't help!
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!
It should be noted that the Canadian Is still running between Vancouver and Winnipeg……but you’re on your own to find alternate transportation east of there to Toronto.
Last edited by NS VIA FAN on Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
After reading the above article…….I checked out a few maps just to see how the Canadian could transfer from its current CN route to run on CP across Ontario. On the east end…..it’s a no brainer:
The westbound Canadian already leaves CN at Boyne/Reynolds near Parry Sound and enters directional running territory on CP.....but instead of switching back to CN at the Wanup/St Cloud diamond just south of Sudbury, it could just continue west through Sudbury on CP to Winnipeg.
Eastbound, the Canadian could go back on CN (and its current route) at Wanup/St Cloud where the north end of directional running begins.
The original Canadian used the CPR Station in Winnipeg but after VIA consolidated all their transcontinental trains at the CN Station in Winnipeg in the late 1970s.....the Canadian used a 4 mile connecting track (CN Pine Falls Sub) on the east side of the city from CP at Manson/Pine Jct to CN at Beach Jct. My SPV Railroad Atlas shows all this track still in place as the Central Manitoba Railway.
If the Canadian is switched over to run on CP and retains its current 4 night schedule…..the following timetable from Summer 1983 might be similar.
Westbound, the times for viewing along the north shore of Lake Superior would not be the best nor the 12:40 am arrival in Thunder Bay. Eastbound times are not so bad.
The westbound Canadian already leaves CN at Boyne/Reynolds near Parry Sound and enters directional running territory on CP.....but instead of switching back to CN at the Wanup/St Cloud diamond just south of Sudbury, it could just continue west through Sudbury on CP to Winnipeg.
Eastbound, the Canadian could go back on CN (and its current route) at Wanup/St Cloud where the north end of directional running begins.
The original Canadian used the CPR Station in Winnipeg but after VIA consolidated all their transcontinental trains at the CN Station in Winnipeg in the late 1970s.....the Canadian used a 4 mile connecting track (CN Pine Falls Sub) on the east side of the city from CP at Manson/Pine Jct to CN at Beach Jct. My SPV Railroad Atlas shows all this track still in place as the Central Manitoba Railway.
If the Canadian is switched over to run on CP and retains its current 4 night schedule…..the following timetable from Summer 1983 might be similar.
Westbound, the times for viewing along the north shore of Lake Superior would not be the best nor the 12:40 am arrival in Thunder Bay. Eastbound times are not so bad.
Thanks NS VIA FAN for posting the 1983 schedule and your viewpoints.
Having travelled on The Canadian frequently in recent years, I can attest to the problems VIA encounters on CN in Northern Ontario. No doubt, VIA timekeeping is an issue due to CN's heavy freight volume and it seems the number of times The Canadian enters sidings for freight trains, is constant. Late arrivals for Train # 2 into Toronto is also very common, often creating problems for passengers for Eastern connections.
I talked to a long term employee of the service crew ( Tor - Winnipeg ) on a recent trip with VIA # 1,on the subject of the CP routing vs. CN, through Ontario. He had worked VIA trains on the CP routing and considered it much superior to CN .... better scenery ( Lake Superior ), less train congestion due to additional double tracking in various locations and more populated areas to increase passenger traffic.
Having travelled on The Canadian frequently in recent years, I can attest to the problems VIA encounters on CN in Northern Ontario. No doubt, VIA timekeeping is an issue due to CN's heavy freight volume and it seems the number of times The Canadian enters sidings for freight trains, is constant. Late arrivals for Train # 2 into Toronto is also very common, often creating problems for passengers for Eastern connections.
I talked to a long term employee of the service crew ( Tor - Winnipeg ) on a recent trip with VIA # 1,on the subject of the CP routing vs. CN, through Ontario. He had worked VIA trains on the CP routing and considered it much superior to CN .... better scenery ( Lake Superior ), less train congestion due to additional double tracking in various locations and more populated areas to increase passenger traffic.
So the obvious question presents itself: is the CN thinking of capacity improvements?
Running between Sudbury and Thunder Bay would eliminate (or at least seem to) the need for the Sudbury-White River RDC service, but would VIA then be required to run some other essential service services between some or all of the Sudbury Jct-Winnipeg to compensate? Can't imagine there wouldn't otherwise be a feeling in the north that VIA would be taking advantage of the calamitous operations on the CN to eliminate what must be an expensive RDC operation, disengaging from the more northern routing leaving communities without good roads to fall back on while gaining large communities along Highway 17 (Kenora, Dryden, Thunder Bay) - shades of the proposed redirection of the Southwest Chief in Kansas/New Mexico.
The reaction at CP to the notion of a permanent switch will also be interesting, and perhaps also at Algoma Central who would lose one of their two east-west connections but the bigger one would come 1.5 hours nearer Sault Saint Marie at Franz. It does point up the dual nature of Canadian, scrapping with Rocky Mountaineer in the west and with more of a public service mandate in the east.
The reaction at CP to the notion of a permanent switch will also be interesting, and perhaps also at Algoma Central who would lose one of their two east-west connections but the bigger one would come 1.5 hours nearer Sault Saint Marie at Franz. It does point up the dual nature of Canadian, scrapping with Rocky Mountaineer in the west and with more of a public service mandate in the east.
dowlingm wrote:Running between Sudbury and Thunder Bay would eliminate (or at least seem to) the need for the Sudbury-White River RDC service, but would VIA then be required to run some other essential service services between some or all of the Sudbury Jct-Winnipeg to compensate?........It’s all hypothetical, but I’m guessing that if the Canadian was to begin running on CP.....it would assume the stops made by the Sudbury-White River RDC.....allowing VIA to transfer the RDC to Capreol to operate a “remote” service along the CN route across northern Ontario.
VIA previously operated a local service between Capreol and Winnipeg up until the Canadian was permanently rerouted to CN in January 1990. Below is the timetable from Summer/Fall 1989.
It's all about money and re-routing Via on CP's tracks makes perfect financial sense for a few reasons:
1. The route is far more scenic than the CN's. Having the opportunity to ride the line ( in the head-end ) I can personally tell you it's absolutely stunning. It also shows the shear beauty of Lake Superior. It's as beautiful as any of the coasts in Canada. Some may disagree with me and they can feel free to do so.
2. More communities and tourist destinations are served. What's one common complaint about the current Canadian??? It simply doesn't go anywhere near people visit in the northern part of the province. More people will use the service if it simply served these regions.
3. Revenue. Via would not have to rely on subsidies as much if more people use it. Via could use its RDCs on From Sudbury Jct. to serve the communities that don't have road access and lose less money.
4. In terms of scrapping with the Rocky Mountaineer - not an issue if it continues on the same route after Winnipeg via Edmonton ( as mentioned in an earlier post ).
5. How well will CP respond? I'm hopeful as they run fewer but longer trains on the route. CP, I know for a fact, has huge sidings and could easily accommodate the Canadian. There's a sentiment that CP is anti-passenger. There's some truth to that - but not to the extent that CN is in that region. My question is, would passengers rather sit on a siding along the shores of Lake Superior with a stunning view? Or be stuck deep in the bush some where near Hornepayne ( no disrespect to anyone from that region ).
6. Thunder Bay is now a area of growth as opposed to what it was in the 1990s. People will use the Canadian to get to Winnipeg, Toronto or any other nice destinations along the route.
7. CP dispatches trains very efficiently on the subdivisions involved in the re-routing. A couple extra trains per week will affect the " flow " as much as CP constantly adds and subtracts trains on a weekly basis.
My thoughts and please discuss, embellish or refute any of my points as I welcome it - this is a forum after all.
Thanks,
M
1. The route is far more scenic than the CN's. Having the opportunity to ride the line ( in the head-end ) I can personally tell you it's absolutely stunning. It also shows the shear beauty of Lake Superior. It's as beautiful as any of the coasts in Canada. Some may disagree with me and they can feel free to do so.
2. More communities and tourist destinations are served. What's one common complaint about the current Canadian??? It simply doesn't go anywhere near people visit in the northern part of the province. More people will use the service if it simply served these regions.
3. Revenue. Via would not have to rely on subsidies as much if more people use it. Via could use its RDCs on From Sudbury Jct. to serve the communities that don't have road access and lose less money.
4. In terms of scrapping with the Rocky Mountaineer - not an issue if it continues on the same route after Winnipeg via Edmonton ( as mentioned in an earlier post ).
5. How well will CP respond? I'm hopeful as they run fewer but longer trains on the route. CP, I know for a fact, has huge sidings and could easily accommodate the Canadian. There's a sentiment that CP is anti-passenger. There's some truth to that - but not to the extent that CN is in that region. My question is, would passengers rather sit on a siding along the shores of Lake Superior with a stunning view? Or be stuck deep in the bush some where near Hornepayne ( no disrespect to anyone from that region ).
6. Thunder Bay is now a area of growth as opposed to what it was in the 1990s. People will use the Canadian to get to Winnipeg, Toronto or any other nice destinations along the route.
7. CP dispatches trains very efficiently on the subdivisions involved in the re-routing. A couple extra trains per week will affect the " flow " as much as CP constantly adds and subtracts trains on a weekly basis.
My thoughts and please discuss, embellish or refute any of my points as I welcome it - this is a forum after all.
Thanks,
M
MikeCDN wrote: My thoughts and please discuss, embellish or refute any of my points as I welcome it - this is a forum after all.All make perfect sense to me......even your point #4: No need to involve Rocky Mountaineer.....just stay on CN west of Winnipeg. If someone really wants to see Banff or the Spiral Tunnels......then ride Rocky!
NS VIA FAN wrote:Furthermore, the VIA ( as we call it in the industry ) could travel the CP route hitting Regina and as far that city in Southern Alberta ( they have a big rodeo there ) then divert north to Edmonton. It'd add an extra day or so... However, lets remember one does not ride the route for speed across the country. Ha! Ha! Ha!MikeCDN wrote: My thoughts and please discuss, embellish or refute any of my points as I welcome it - this is a forum after all.All make perfect sense to me......even your point #4: No need to involve Rocky Mountaineer.....just stay on CN west of Winnipeg. If someone really wants to see Banff or the Spiral Tunnels......then ride Rocky!
It looks like CN would be happy to rid themselves of the Canadian altogether these days.
Furthermore, I CHALLENGE ANYONE AND EVERYONE TO WRITE THE CEOS OF BOTH RAILWAYS ABOUT THE FINANCIAL BENEFITS FOR BOTH COMPANIES.
MikeCDN wrote: 1. The route is far more scenic than the CN's. Having the opportunity to ride the line ( in the head-end ) I can personally tell you it's absolutely stunning. It also shows the shear beauty of Lake Superior. It's as beautiful as any of the coasts in Canada. Some may disagree with me and they can feel free to do so.I have a copy of the wonderful book " Nicholas Morant's Canadian Pacific " by J.F. Garden. Morant had a career than spanned from 1929 to 1981, as the CPR Company photographer. The book has a 20 page section on the North Shore of Lake Superior, majority of photos are locations at Mink Tunnel, Little Pic River bridge near Middleton, Jackfish Bay, and Cavers to the west of Schreiber. When I first viewed the Lake Superior photos, I was simply amazed of the scenery ..... to use MikeCDN's quote again " absolutely stunning ".
If the reroute of the Canadian were to happen, a good part of CPR's Canadian heritage route would be restored. My personal wish would be to have service restoration to Calgary, however, as pointed out in previous posts, perhaps best to avoid conflicts with The Rocky Mountaineer, for now.
Local politicians hopeful suspended Via Rail line could lead to restoration of service to city
http://www.tbnewswatch.com/News/369270/ ... ce_to_city" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.tbnewswatch.com/News/369270/ ... ce_to_city" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
La CTON n'est PAS à vendre! ~ The ONTC is NOT for sale!
Une nouvelle province au Canada: le nord de l'Ontario.
A new province in Canada: Northern Ontario
Une nouvelle province au Canada: le nord de l'Ontario.
A new province in Canada: Northern Ontario
Communities along the CP Routing need to lobby that Via returns to that line.
It makes no sense on the current routing on CN.
M.
It makes no sense on the current routing on CN.
M.
Has there been any other news regarding this? Or is there just plain / old apathy regarding this issue?
I, among others, have sent emails petitioning the respective CEOs and local politicians to consider this.
M.
I, among others, have sent emails petitioning the respective CEOs and local politicians to consider this.
M.