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  • Union Pacific UP PTC Positive Train Control

  • Discussion about the Union Pacific operations past and present. Official site can be found here: UPRR.COM.
Discussion about the Union Pacific operations past and present. Official site can be found here: UPRR.COM.

Moderator: GOLDEN-ARM

 #394082  by UPRR engineer
 
Finally got to look at one yesterday. Went out and dogcaught a local late last night. My conductor just got back from a cruise in Mexico, so we spent the better part of our trip talking about that. When we got to town, and after clipping the junk off the rear, i started tying down the power and then i noticed three screens on the desk. Theres a new breaker behind the hog seat and a cab signal looking knob/switch under the conductor desk by the steps. After turning both of those things on, the third screen lit up and the computer started looking for instructions from space, as far as i could tell. After a couple minutes of that these big words popped up "Communications Based Train Control". I finished doing what i had to do and came back up there and turned it off, nothing had changed on the screen. Once i made it back to the shack i realized i should have un-nullified the controls and threw the reverser and gave her some gas to see if things changed..

 #394333  by paddy78
 
Interesting that one of those wound up out there at Green River; I bet someone pulled the trigger without looking at the target on that one...someone who will probably get the usual conference call verbal thrashing that is normal for SNAFUs at the ol' UP....

Anyhoo, those CBTC units probably wont do anything special unless the track has been mapped out by the "GPS train"....don't ask me what it looks like, but such a creature is rumored to exist. (Might be 2 guys in a hyrail for all I know) That third screen is supposed to bring up something that looks a lot like the train / track profile in the simulator. Shows your train snaking along the grades behind you, and the blocks ahead of you up to and past the next absolute. I think it adds blocks on as you tick them off and it looks a little like CAD in terms of colors and such. Kinda nifty, but dont see how it even comes close to replacing a pair of eyes and ears....or a pair of boots on the ground doing rollbys...(ahem)

 #396341  by UPRR engineer
 
They gotter it all mapped out already, Herzog GPS Ballast Train has been coming up here for a few years now. Reminded me of the first time i turned on an RCL unit that was parked in the yard.

 #396528  by paddy78
 
The Herzog Ballast train would do it then...but I was thinking about this and I dont think the loco's run offa GPS...its not accurate enough. I think the best non-military systems are good to 10 meters, or 30ish feet. Good enough to find your way around downtown, but not good enough to pick out who is on the main and who is in the pocket (or who is on what main...even worse!), so I think it is still tied into CAD or something somehow. Watch for signal"men" wearing slacks and polos....then you will know they are serious.

 #412464  by LCJ
 
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Last edited by LCJ on Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 #412785  by Rockin' Roller
 
If you combine GPS with Omnistar's DGPS service, the accuracy can be down to 10 centimeters.
The problem you would run into with GPS is hills, trees, over passes, tunnels and everything else that would block your signal.

 #413053  by conrail_engineer
 
I guess you can't stop progress...but I have a real problem with this. Not the threat of one-man crews; that actually will bring welcome changes along with it, in scheduling and predictablilty.

No, the problem I have, is the dumbing down of the craft. If everything is overseen/overridden by the Home Orifice...skills and artistry go out the window. It becomes just a job...sit on your duff, move a few levers, no worries, the computer will do your thinking.

We get big buck$ because we have huge knowlege bases and honed skills. If none of that matters, it's only a matter of time until the "engineer's" job pays about as much as the cab drivers's.

 #413153  by LCJ
 
conrail_engineer wrote:No, the problem I have, is the dumbing down of the craft.
Actually, that very discussion has been going on around the industry among the more thoughtful individuals. Reasonable people can make a case for what you say. The other side -- some would say equally as valid -- is the need to drive out the undesirable variation that seems to occur in operations in the areas of signal compliance (critical to safety -- wouldn't you say?) and fuel consumption (more important than ever these days).

Somehow we need to strike a balance with this. Example of such a system working very effectively is the airliner controls that can operate a plane from takeoff to landing with very little input from a human being. Are pilots "dumbed down" these days? Man, I hope not! But then again, pilots are treated a bit differently than engineers (uh-huh).

 #413178  by conrail_engineer
 
LCJ wrote:
Actually, that very discussion has been going on around the industry among the more thoughtful individuals. Reasonable people can make a case for what you say. The other side -- some would say equally as valid -- is the need to drive out the undesirable variation that seems to occur in operations in the areas of signal compliance (critical to safety -- wouldn't you say?) and fuel consumption (more important than ever these days).
Interesting. As a new-old head, someone who learned under the old ways of doing things...I would say that a lot of the "variables" have to do with employee hiring, selection for engineer training, and discipline standards, frequently waived for irrelevent criteria.

James Michener, a favorite author of mine, once had one of his protagonists proclaim: "The most expensive thing in the world, is cheap labor." It's demonstrably true; and more to the point, cutting corners on hiring, or hiring for docility and malleability, leads to these kinds of "variables."

Were I in a position to make constructive changes, they'd be simple ones: Recruit the best. Only train as engineers, those trainmen who both want it and qualify...NOT with a threat on their jobs.

I realize the ultimate aim is the all-purpose Train Crewman; and I don't necessarily oppose it. Having a co-engineer along, a conductor who's got his certification, is a great help on all-nighters.

But what I see, is that too many people are making it in who should be kept far away.

Oh...and, fuel savings? I love it....those new GEs that shut down thirty seconds before we're given the OK to pull out; that start and stop every 20 minutes in cold weather.

I'm a professional. I take my job seriously; and when I can notch back or shut down some of my consist, I do so. I can judge this a whole lot better, with less wear on the starter, than can an autostart program and a timer.

And if my railroad would hire a few more professionals and a few less yokels, it wouldn't be an issue.

Okay, rant's over...:-D
LCJ wrote:Somehow we need to strike a balance with this. Example of such a system working very effectively is the airliner controls that can operate a plane from takeoff to landing with very little input from a human being. Are pilots "dumbed down" these days? Man, I hope not! But then again, pilots are treated a bit differently than engineers (uh-huh).


Selected a bit differently, too...degrees in aerospace engineering are often a requirement.

I'd put this up: The skills, the knowlege, that aren't used, tend to dissapate. I know this from having done Coal Drag Duty for extended periods; with underpowered trains, that are run Eighth Notch from start to finish, you tend to lose the edge, or at least I did. I'd get put on the odd rocket sled, and I'd be fumbling all over the place trying to keep the needle on the sweet spot, not above or below. Missing the fulcrum point on hillcrests. Stopping WAY short.

As I said, it doesn't matter. Progress will not be denied...blacksmiths had it hard, too, back in the 1920s.

 #414072  by ZephyrHogHead
 
Well, I am not the oldest head by far. Although, I did grow up in a railroad family and do remember learning to read speed tapes when i was 10. And I do mean speed tapes in the paper sense. Not this download crap.

At any rate. I am all for fuel conservation. Working for Amtrak they preach this now. But, at the same time you will be told off the record not to shut any engine down or let the auto start run. Apparently there is a fear that these GE'S that we have will not re-start. I agree with this, but, if thats the case why put the system in to begin with. Then again I am not a 'brilliant manager" or budget man. I am just the poor guy that lives with the short commings of this cheap equipment 6 days a week and fixes it not in a shop but out on the road!

This positive train control though. What ever happened to an engineer running a train? People are constantly trying to come up with new ways of making things "run better and safer". I really dont believe this at all. What a farse. The industry is trying to simplify something that is all ready quite simple. And, they are doing this due to the fact that they are hiring more and more less qualified people that just flat out dont care nor take pride in this line of work, much less respect it or the men who know how to work it.

Seems more and more to me like the railroad tests these new systems in hopes of taking the decision making away from us engineers. Whom, lets not forget, they invest hundreds of thousands of dollars training. Last time I checked we railroaders are not un-intelligent people. If we were why would they train us so well???

Railroading has worked just fine for over 100 years just the way it is! Maybe railroads need to be reminded of that. They should also be reminded that engineers know how to run a train better than any computer out there. We do not need a distance to target to hit a speed. We just do it by the seat of our pants. Computer cobtrolled braking!!! What a joke. NYAB should be ashamed for creating something so terrible. I wish the college graduate geniuses that came up with the crap had to actually use it. Maybe then they would see how much it does not even come close to a "real" break valve.

I say what needs to happen is this. Hire some competant people out here for goodness sake. I have 6 years experience, between my conductor, brakeman and student engineer I have more time!!!! That is scary. Get rid of these computers. brake valves worked wonderfully before CCB. If I want 10lbs a 26 brake will give it to me, CCB who only knows!

Give us back the control that was once had to make the decisions and train the new guys properly.

Lastly, LETS GET SOME NEW CONTRACTS HUH!!!

 #414189  by slchub
 
As long as incidents continue to happens such as the 2003 METRA derailment and the collision of the MHOTU-23 and the MEAP-TUL-126-D in Macdona, Texas, we will see recommendations by/from the NTSB to implement and establish PTC's. This is nothing new. The NTSB has been pushing this issue for a decade now. The FRA is now stepping up to the plate as well to have the big boys try it out. You can be sure that the Class 1's are looking at a way to implement some type of PTC in order to run their trains with one man crews.

Take a look at the insane length of the UP manifest trains now which are DPU'd, are built with milk cans in the middle, loads agains mt's, etc. Business has slowed down yes, but I see no need for the UP to build such trains so that only one crew is needed to run one train vs. two. UPRR Engineer, I suppose you still get a level 2 out of the deal if you catch a coupler on one of these bad boys?

As long as the TE&Y employees are expected to work 12 hours, remain in limbo time to get in the van back to the depot, tie-up, get home, rested and called back out in 8 hours, incidents will happen. This excerpt from a public hearing details a sampling of the existing fatigue issues on had at the UP as well as any other Class 1 carrier:

"The accident engineer said the company occasionally mailed safety-related material to employees. Although he did not recall whether he had received any mailings addressing fatigue, he said he remembered having seen a pamphlet that [said] you should get eight hours sleep [and] you should have a regular sleep cycle, which we don’t have. [Also] it [said that when you sleep, the room] should be dark and quiet. He also said,
The things that were in the pamphlet aren't things that we can do. The engineer said he had never been exposed to formal training of any kind having to do with alertness or fatigue. At the April 2005 public hearing on this accident, the director of occupational health said the company did not mandate periodic fatigue training for UP employees."

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2006/RAR0603.pdf

I've read one to many narratives and briefs from investigative reports from the NTSB as follows:

'The National Transportation Safety Board determined that the probable cause of the July 10, 2005, collision in Anding, Mississippi, was the failure by the crew of the northbound train (IC 1013 North) to comply with wayside signals requiring them to stop at North Anding. The crew’s attention to the signals was most likely reduced by fatigue'

http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2007/R07_8.pdf

I would much rather have an additional safety device in place than to continue in the manner in which we have in recent years. With many, many new freight Conductors (if they are not cut back) sleeping, reading, listening to their iPod etc. instead of calling out stations, signals and creating a little chit-chat in the cab, the hogger has a heck of a time keeping the train moving in a safe manner at o'dark thirty.

When computers came on the scene and an office got a 80286 loaded with Windows 2.0, nobody in their right mind thought that the world would become what it is now with technology. I doubt that we will see an end to "locomotive improvements" and PTC systems.

 #414234  by LCJ
 
It's been quite a while since I was an engineer. But I still remember, very clearly, working the xtra board (most of my years) and never quite feeling rested until after about a week of vacation. And in those days, the "limbo time" factor was not nearly as significant as it is now (yes, some of the Class I companies are abusing that piece of "operational flexibility").

I know one thing for sure -- I would have loved to have had a gee-whiz PTC system backing me up at 4:30 AM when the super glue kept trying to stick my eyelids together, as I was struggling to see the next signal around the bend (and sweating bullets when I couldn't recall seeing the last one).

 #414274  by CSXT 700
 
I dont know about on the UP, but on CSX here in the Ohio, Michigan area, we just had a GPS run all across Michigan and Northern Ohio. And Paddy 78 had it right. The first time I saw it I thought it was a UP high rail truck, it was paint just like one, white with two yellow stripes, but no UP logo. I beleave it was acutally a Suburban, type truck. It was following one of the regular CSX Hi Rail trucks. Lots of antennas, and such on the roof.

 #414354  by Rockin' Roller
 
CSXT 700 wrote:I dont know about on the UP, but on CSX here in the Ohio, Michigan area, we just had a GPS run all across Michigan and Northern Ohio. And Paddy 78 had it right. The first time I saw it I thought it was a UP high rail truck, it was paint just like one, white with two yellow stripes, but no UP logo. I beleave it was acutally a Suburban, type truck. It was following one of the regular CSX Hi Rail trucks. Lots of antennas, and such on the roof.
That was the new Herzog truck.

 #414490  by CSXT 700
 
Ok the two times I seen it, there was no lettering on it, just white, with two yellow stripes.