Railroad Forums 

  • Susquehanna Turned down on transfer station 11/11/09

  • Discussion related to New York, Susquehanna & Western operations past and present. Also includes some discussion related to Deleware Otsego owned and operated shortlines. Official web site can be found here: NYSW.COM.
Discussion related to New York, Susquehanna & Western operations past and present. Also includes some discussion related to Deleware Otsego owned and operated shortlines. Official web site can be found here: NYSW.COM.

Moderators: GOLDEN-ARM, NJ Vike

 #737607  by blockline4180
 
kingfish wrote:I guess the town fathers have never heard of the commerce clause and federal premption.

The NIMBY idiots strike again. No new jobs in my back yard...
I agree here.... It's their own fault if they buy their house near the railroad!!
 #737897  by SemperFidelis
 
And if someone tried to open an LTL trucking terminal on my road I'd complain, too. Or is it my fault for owning a house on a road? I know it's not really apples to apples, but these people have a right to thier opinions in our little democracy and it looks like thier opinions (narrowly) won.

Along with transfer terminals comes truck traffic, not just rail traffic.

Maybe they'd have better luck somewhere down the old Greewood Lake Branch, like near the Guard armory. Not much residential around there.
 #738091  by airman00
 
You know...this is a very interesting topic of discussion. First off notice this: Everyone here appreciates their garbage removal. They like having their recycling picked up as well. People like when UPS and FEDEX and the USPS, deliver mail and packages to their houses. Ask anyone if they'd like to live near the garbage transfer station, and they'll tell you no way. I understand that completely.

Ask anyone would they like to live near where the delivery trucks get loaded up and again they'd say no. How about a truck yard, or a cement plant, or a place where landscapers and tree guys operate out of. Nobody wants to live near these places, I get it.

However...These places have to be somewhere. Realistically where do people expect others to park their trucks and equipment? Where do they think the railyards are? You know, imagine you worked for yourself and had to park your truck 1 hour away from where you live, because everyone complains they don't want to see or park or live next to your truck. You'd have to travel an hour just to get to your truck everyday, it'd be too much! You would have to start charging double for the job, just to cover your travel expenses, not to mentions the thousands of miles being put on your vehicle. People need to understand these places have to be somewhere, and the farther away these places are, the more $$ companies charge for their services.

An example: A garbage removal company from the next town over, will charge significantly less money, than one who comes in from out of state. That is just common sense. People say I don't want to live near a rail yard, fine I get it. But then you can't complain when things cost too much because now goods and services come from out of the area.
 #738163  by SemperFidelis
 
That's why I was recommending a location perhaps somewhere down the old Greenwood Lake Branch, away from residential areas.

I think local and state governments need to do a much better job of zoning so that there is appropriate room for each desired use (commercial, residential, industrial etc.) and appropriate buffers between each so that the needs of one do not infringe upon the needs of the others. Presently, most towns zoning structures are a joke.

Take the waste transfer in Totowa. It's in the middle of an industrial park that generates tons of truck traffic already, so no one complains about it. I'm not exactly sure where in Riverdale the NYSW would like to put this waste transfer, but I can appreciate folks not wanting to live near it.

I have to agree with airman00. But the reality is that most Americans generally like having their cake and eating it, too. Not many people take the time to understand how it is the widget they just purchased got there or what happens to their waste once it's placed by the curb. All they see is the dollar amount attached to it.

CSX and NS are only starting to hammer the airwaves with messages about the value of rail. Maybe the messages will help raise awareness a little. I understand the NYSW doesn't really have any money to advertise with, but reaching out in public forums (town meetings etc.) would probably go a long way to helping people understand why that railroad by their house is a valuable asset and not just a noisy pathway that attracts illegal dumping.
 #738686  by cjvrr
 
Just some points of clarification;

1. Its NOT a waste trasfer station. It was proposed to transfer bricks from rail car to truck at this location.

2. AFAIK The area is zoned residential adjacent to the tracks. I do not believe the municipality can zone the actual railroad property itself.

3. The existing railroad yard in this location was built in the early 1990s (also under municpal protest) to transfer corn syrup from tank cars to truck. I would think most of the residents adjacent to the track are the same residents that protested the last time. Prior to this yard being built there was one track used infrequently to service Morris Pipe about 2/3 of a mile to the south. It was not a yard.
 #738767  by trainwayne1
 
The borough of Riverdale had no trouble rearranging zoning issues to accomadate the huge Walmart complex a few years ago....which has more traffic in an 8 hour day than a transfer facility would in a month......all in the name of ratables. The town and Walmart played the usual political games. It's not the first time it's happened in Riverdale, going back many years. I suspect that the railroad refuses to play the "game" that the local leaders want to play. There are always "costs" involved with deals like this, and the railroad's traditional way of doing things doesn't mesh well with what the town officials want in the way of compromises. I'm pretty sure that if the NYS&W were to "donate" some property somewhere else that the town could use for something there could be a meeting of the minds, regardless of the local opposition.
 #738830  by cjvrr
 
Here we go down the road with the inference that every local official is "on the take". I have a relative that was on the planning board in Riverdale for 25 years. Most times they were on the ball for re-zoning. This made the town more attractive for (re)development, thereby keeping the property tax burden on the residential owners one of the lowest in the state. As you probably are aware a portion of the Walmart site had been highway retail prior to Route 287 being constructed. So the re-zoning for Walmart was not a stretch. And other than the xmas rush, the traffic to and from the site has not been that bad and I commute on that road every day.

Now back to the transfer facility. The site is not a simple transfer of materials from train to truck. As has been the case with this brick company's Roxbury facility, the brick is stored for months and months at the site. So it is not just transfered, it is stored on site. Isn't that more of an outdoor warehouse use rather than a transfer facility? If allowed, why wouldn't the railroad seek other types of businesses that have materials to store outdoor along the right of way in Riverdale or elsewhere?

To me this has more to do with the interpretation of the exemption the railroad operates under. The transfer facility can circumvent the local zoning rules IF it is run by the railroad. However as is true with the garbage transfer facilities, none are actually run by the railroad themselves with railroad employees. Its all subbed out to the contractor or company that needs the operation. So in this case, instead of the brick company finding a suitable site along a rail line and building a proper brick transfer facility that complies with the local zoning codes, the railroad is offering one up under their exemption.

My thought all along has been the brick company should talk with Morris Pipe further down the branch. Morris Pipe has been shrinking its operation year to year for a long time. They have / had rail service and a large outdoor warehouse site that is bearly used. It is also directly on a major highway. A much better site, zoned correctly, and not more than a half mile away.


trainwayne1 wrote:The borough of Riverdale had no trouble rearranging zoning issues to accomadate the huge Walmart complex a few years ago....which has more traffic in an 8 hour day than a transfer facility would in a month......all in the name of ratables. The town and Walmart played the usual political games. It's not the first time it's happened in Riverdale, going back many years. I suspect that the railroad refuses to play the "game" that the local leaders want to play. There are always "costs" involved with deals like this, and the railroad's traditional way of doing things doesn't mesh well with what the town officials want in the way of compromises. I'm pretty sure that if the NYS&W were to "donate" some property somewhere else that the town could use for something there could be a meeting of the minds, regardless of the local opposition.
 #738842  by trainwayne1
 
I didn't infer that anyone was "on the take".....merely that deals are made behind closed doors that later result in legitimate business transactions. You're not being realistic if you think these things don't happen. I was born and raised in the area and am very aware of the traffic problems on Rt, 23.......As soon as they finished improving the road to 3 lanes, Riverdale built 2 huge shopping centers, and the road was right back to what it was. What road do you think NJ Transit is targeting relief for in its plans to add service on the NYS&W, whenever that happens. If I'm not mistaken, the right of way in question is 100' wide, and I can't really see the reduction in quality of life that stored bricks would make....they're not haz-mat, they don't make noise. For years the store next to the station sold hardware and building supplies and there was never a problem. I'm also sure that the railroad was already there when just about all of the houses were built along the right of way. Perhaps the town might offer to maintain the extra track or reduce the taxes between the location in question and Morris Pipe (IF that site is available) , as you are expecting the railroad to pay for using that property instead of the land they already own and pay taxes on.
 #738909  by airman00
 
You all here make great points! I think what really needs to happen, is for the railroad company and the town in question is to sit down and discuss each others sides and come up with some kind of agreement. One problem with this though...First off this couldn't be a closed door meeting. They could hammer out a preliminary agreement behind closed doors, but no final agreements until voted in a public meeting/forum, (like a town council meeting), this way no traces of a back room deal.

And the public meeting is where things usually fail. I garauntee you there will be at least 1-2 or more (probably alot more, like 10-15)
residents along track line that don't like the railroad or could even be anti-rail. It won't matter to these people that when they bought their house train tracks we're already there. Nor will it matter that an occasional train, ran by every once in a while. They didn't buy their house because of the train, they bought it because they liked the house or the neighborhood, etc.

And when told only a handful of small freight trains run by, say 1-2 times a week, they're fine with that. All of the sudden, they here of a plan to expand service on that old frieght line behind their house, and that 1 train a week becomes 2-3 trains a day, they just about have a stroke. Some people or certain people you just cannot please, no matter what you do. The flip side however is this: If the railroad company were to meet personally with each resident and listen to their concerns, rather than just do it, because they can, perhaps more things can be accomplished. Most things can be done, if people just talk to one another. Don't be afraid to swallow your pride and treat people like people, not obstacles in your way. When things are open and honest, people generally get along great! As far as those few individuals you could never please no matter what you do? Just do the best you can with them, maybe offer to put up some kind of sound barrier or something.
 #738926  by NYS&W142Fan
 
Most times when people buy near a rail line, they are doing so because they getting a better price for the house because of the rail line. Then they figure they can put up a stink and hopfully get things changed. It's no different than people who buy at the end of a runway then complain about aircraft. I have seen it happen all too often. And to put up sound barriers, who would pay for that? I would not expect the railroad to pay just because I bought a house next to a railroad and don't like the noise. Ultimatley we would all pay as taxpayers to placate a few. I do agree that they should look into the Morris Pipe facility as that could be a more cost effective and neighbor pleasing alternative.