Railroad Forums 

  • Oil Trains (RJMA / MARJ, OI-x, etc)

  • Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.
Guilford Rail System changed its name to Pan Am Railways in 2006. Discussion relating to the current operations of the Boston & Maine, the Maine Central, and the Springfield Terminal railroads (as well as the Delaware & Hudson while it was under Guilford control until 1988). Official site can be found here: PANAMRAILWAYS.COM.

Moderator: MEC407

 #1326864  by KSmitty
 
I wrote that and I believe it. Railroads are massive enterprises with mechanical, human, and natural forces all at work in concert.

Nothing mechanical is immune to wear, fatigue and failure.
Nothing human is immune to fatigue, poor judgement and mistakes.
Nothing natural is perfectly predictable, consistent or controllable.

When you combine those three facts the result is inevitable, if you move oil by the millions of barrels as the US rail network has been doing. Failure of a human or mechanical component is simply inevitable. The cause of failure can be anything, in Megantic it was fatigued mechanical parts working in concert with human elements that made poor decisions. But it can be something so simple as an extra-cold day in January that pulls a ribbon weld apart. The idea of a derailment free world in which CBR is transported safely 100% of the time is nothing more than a dream.

I don't think accidents can't be minimized, but society puts a $ before pretty much everything else. Can we dramatically reduce the likely hood of an accident involving CBR? Sure, but at what cost? We've tried stronger tanks, they help in the low speed accidents, but if you accordion a train at 60 they crack just like the older cars. So, we can mix the safer cars with reduced speeds. BNSF's last big mistake was at about 30 when they picked a switch, still got a big boom. So, that leaves your standard railroad speeds of 25 and 10. Hard time believing a 5mph difference is gonna do it. Slow everything to 10, including all on coming trains, only the CPC tanks, inspect the line between every train. Pretty soon that $52 barrel of oil costs you $50, $60, $70 to ship it cross country. Which makes Saudi/Brent/Russian oil cheaper when shipped half way round the world.

Oil train derailments are as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. Could most be prevented? Yes, but the economic justifications we use as a society put the emphasis on lower fuel prices, not the absolute safety of transport. When you look at the numbers I posted a while back, you can draw many conclusions, but I'm still comfortable knowing the trains roll by in the night, less than 1500' away.
 #1326900  by newpylong
 
MEC407 wrote:
690 wrote:I don't think anyone is accepting them as unavoidable...
I'm simply responding to my good friend KSmitty, who wrote that oil train derailments are "...as unavoidable as the sun rising tomorrow morning" and compared them to heart attacks. I respectfully disagree with those statements.
690 wrote:...but there is only so much that can be done to prevent them from happening.
We can always do more. We should strive for constant improvement. That is, or used to be, the American spirit.

I have faith that our railroads can answer these challenges. I simply question whether they have the will to try.

We should be encouraging them to do better instead of just shrugging these things off. Think of it as tough love.
I don't believe anyone has shrugged anything off or is not seeking to do better. Surely you have heard of Emergency Order 28?

Things will never be 100% safe. They thought the Titanic was unsinkable...it's now over two miles deep in the Atlantic.

Bad things happen and you learn.
 #1326997  by MEC407
 
newpylong wrote:They thought the Titanic was unsinkable...it's now over two miles deep in the Atlantic.
The result of an arrogant business and lax government oversight. The same could be said of the Lac-Mégantic tragedy.
newpylong wrote:Surely you have heard of Emergency Order 28?
Yes I have, and as we all know, that was a government mandate. It didn't come voluntarily from the railroads. So I stand by my statement that we, as citizens, through our duly elected government, must expect and demand continued improvement from our railroads.
 #1327004  by newpylong
 
MEC407 wrote:
newpylong wrote:They thought the Titanic was unsinkable...it's now over two miles deep in the Atlantic.
The result of an arrogant business and lax government oversight. The same could be said of the Lac-Mégantic tragedy.
newpylong wrote:Surely you have heard of Emergency Order 28?
Yes I have, and as we all know, that was a government mandate. It didn't come voluntarily from the railroads. So I stand by my statement that we, as citizens, through our duly elected government, must expect and demand continued improvement from our railroads.
Most railroads had special bulletins in place before EO28 came out that go above and beyond the mandate. Pan Am's is much more strict.

Regardless, do you suggest there is a way to entirely remove the human factor as well as somehow guarantee a 100% equipment success rate? Someone told the captain of the Titanic to go faster than advised through known a iceberg field. Someone made a decision to rivet the hull in a cost cutting fashion that may have weakened the steel.

Someone did not test the hand brakes at Megantic.

Someone flew the GermanWings plane into the ground.

There is a big chance someone will cause the next big disaster.

If you want to be 100% safe you might as well sit on your couch. You won't have electricity because somewhere along the line fuel needed to be moved from Point A to B, and that is unsafe.

Go ahead and expect/demand things be safer, but things will fail.
 #1327016  by MEC407
 
I guess I'm not making my point very well.
 #1327018  by MEC407
 
newpylong wrote:Regardless, do you suggest there is a way to entirely remove the human factor as well as somehow guarantee a 100% equipment success rate?
Nope, never suggested/thought/implied that.

I guess I've failed to adequately articulate my thoughts on this matter. It's a complex issue... :-\
 #1327025  by gokeefe
 
MEC407 wrote:It's a complex issue... :-\
And it is made all that much more problematic by the unique practices of the Bakken Oil fields. First and foremost I think it is worth remembering that the crude being shipped was not properly classified. Second, the current practice of leaving condensates and other highly volatile gases in the crude is also a contributing factor. All of this leads to tank cars being loaded with highly flammable liquids which far exceed their rated safety parameters. Regardless of the arguments regarding DOT-111 tank cars, PTC, or operating practices I think the first place to seek answers is in the cargo itself. Eliminate the condensates and gas and you would have a far greater margin of safety.
 #1327028  by newpylong
 
In support of both sides, mandating a phased upgrade to the safer tank car standard is something that can immediately provide a benefit, though at high rates of speed there isn't much that can be done.
 #1327030  by gokeefe
 
newpylong wrote:In support of both sides, mandating a phased upgrade to the safer tank car standard is something that can immediately provide a benefit, though at high rates of speed there isn't much that can be done.
Absolutely agreed. And Pan Am deserves a lot of credit for implementing strong safety practices that have prevented a major accident in their territory. I greatly appreciate this in particular given the exposure and risks present in Winthrop.
 #1327036  by gokeefe
 
newpylong wrote:Should see the EDRJ's come in with 60 loads of LPG. Talk about Oil being a bomb train.
Indeed and I would imagine those loads are only going to increase with time. It seems as if there is a new propane terminal (truck or rail) being opened every week up here.
 #1327054  by NRGeep
 
gokeefe wrote:
MEC407 wrote:It's a complex issue... :-\
And it is made all that much more problematic by the unique practices of the Bakken Oil fields. First and foremost I think it is worth remembering that the crude being shipped was not properly classified. Second, the current practice of leaving condensates and other highly volatile gases in the crude is also a contributing factor. All of this leads to tank cars being loaded with highly flammable liquids which far exceed their rated safety parameters. Regardless of the arguments regarding DOT-111 tank cars, PTC, or operating practices I think the first place to seek answers is in the cargo itself. Eliminate the condensates and gas and you would have a far greater margin of safety.
Butane and propane for starters are present in the Baaken crude.
 #1327069  by dnelson
 
Air travel is one of the safest forms of transportation, yet it has the potential for causing uniquely extreme disasters whether it be an entire plane of passengers and flight crew dying, or something even worse like 9/11. Crude oil unit trains are similar in the sense that should problems arise, there's the potential for a frighteningly high death toll and other significant damages. 

Much like airport security became significantly more extreme after 9/11, and the FRA issued Emergency Order 2B after Megantic, once the causes of major disasters are identified, changes rules and practices are put into place to prevent the same thing from happening again. The changes don't mean planes and oil trains don't have the potential for another major disaster should something go wrong, but they make such an event less likely in the future. 

Much like it would not have been realistic to shut down all airports for good after 9/11, it isn't realistic to end the shipment of crude oil by rail altogether. It is also very much in the best interests of railroads to run oil trains as safely as possible. Generally speaking, it seems railroads are attempting to do that. An example of that is New York's Rockland County Sheriff's department monitoring the speeds of 81 CSX oil trains with radar guns over a month long period in 2014. They found were zero instances of a CSX oil train even coming close to the River Subdivision's 50 MPH track speed, with crude trains instead averaging 26.5 MPH. Another example was Pan Am restricting February's oil train to 10 MPH east of CPF 185 (and reportedly going well under that much of the time). 

That's not to say citizens don't have a right or reason to be concerned about the safety of oil trains. Compared to people being upset about an Amtrak layover facility being built at a location that has been railroad property since before every living human on earth today was born, it is completely reasonable and legitimate for people to be worried about the safety of oil trains running through their towns. It’s also reasonable for people to question railroads’ commitment to running their trains safely, especially after Megantic.

The problem that ends up making rational discussions about the potential dangers of oil trains in the general public so rare is that oil trains have become a scapegoat for people trying to push unrelated political agendas on both sides of the American political spectrum. Pro-pipeline conservatives point to the dangers of oil trains as something that can be dealt with by building pipelines. Anti-fracking environmentalists point to the dangers of oil trains as evidence that the country needs to stop using crude oil altogether. Since many Americans latch onto whatever views their political party is telling them to have without any critical thinking or exploring other sides of the picture, both sides of the politically involved portion of the population have been taught to be anti-oil train. I don't mean to move this discussion into any sort of political debate, I'm just acknowledging that politics shape the views on oil trains of many.

There are plenty of people who have more informed and realistic perspectives on the issue, and I consider those contributing to this thread to be among them, but I've found productive talks regarding oil trains with most people to be a losing battle. Unlike air travel, where there seems to be a universal realization that despite its potential for major disasters, keeping airports open is a necessary risk that must be taken in order to maintain a desired lifestyle, people have a serious disconnect from the fuels they’re consuming in order to live their daily lives. Because of this, they fail to understand that those fuels need to be shipped long distances before they can be used, and that there is no 100% safe way for that to happen.
 #1327080  by KSmitty
 
That last point is spot on Dan!

Most people never see gasoline, oil, petroleum products. We put the nozzle in the filler neck and squeeze a trigger. Never see it in any way other than a reflection on a guage on a dash. Many pay a mechanic or tech to change the oil. Never see the fuels and oil products that drive our llives, and as such never consider the how and when of its drilling, transportation, refining and delivery.
 #1327106  by CN9634
 
Or they can focus on pre-treating the product before they move it... probably will take some kind of legislation to force companies to cough up $$ to do that.... I'm also sure there are paid lobbyist to keep the rolling pipeline going and the actual pipeline away.
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