POSE / SEPO (Portland - Selkirk trains)

[GuilfordRailSD45]

Nope, the power is still making it to Rigby. POSE was through Lawrence around 11:20 this morning with 2 CSX GE's, and SEPO was into Dover, NH about an hour ago with 2 CSX GE's and a Pan Am unit.

[Abe Froman]

SEPO and opposite counterpart POSE move over track owned by the T (Barbers-Ayer) with perpetual freight movement rights provided to Guilford and/or PanAm Southern (Barbers-Ayer and slightly beyond to The Willows); and Guilford (Willows-Portland). In the overwhelming majority of instances CSX furnishes the locomotives that are, I believe, operated by employees of Guilford or one of Guilford’s several corporate subsidiaries. Guilford/PanAm Operations controls the track from Worcester-Portland, train crews and dispatching. CSX controls everything else from Marketing the train to obtaining the necessary freight cars and bills shippers exclusively regardless of direction.

Is this train movement an example of Trackage Rights or Haulage Rights? Since only one answer can be correct and accurate a supplementary question results. Occasionally, we learn of or view a photo of a Guilford/PanAm locomotive (owned or leased) on CSX track working off “horsepower hours.” Since POSE/SEPO is, essentially, a CSX train operating over former B&M owned rails from Barbers-Portland and those rails are now owned by different corporate or state organizations-and CSX SEPO/POSE is a run through movement, i.e. it performs no switching or car cuts along the route, how is it that Guilford/PanAm would owe CSX “horsepower hours?”

Viewed differently and from the perspective of a different carrier (P&W) operating over much of the same track (those coal and limestone trains P&W operates from someplace in Rhode Island to Bow NH via Barbers-Ayer-Lowell-Bow or, alternatively, the P&W coal trains operated over PAS destined for the Mt. Tom generating plant and reverse runs with MTs)-Guilford/PanAm power is never reported as working off “horsepower hours” on the P&W.

The subject of trackage or haulage rights and the consequent assignment of locomotives is not a difference lacking a distinction with CSX and P&W since Guilford/PanAm appears chronically short of necessary numbers of locomotives capable of achieving and maintaining those ludicrous low speeds for hours on end.

[CN9634]

SEPO and opposite counterpart POSE move over track owned by the T (Barbers-Ayer) with perpetual freight movement rights provided to Guilford and/or PanAm Southern (Barbers-Ayer and slightly beyond to The Willows); and Guilford (Willows-Portland). In the overwhelming majority of instances CSX furnishes the locomotives that are, I believe, operated by employees of Guilford or one of Guilford’s several corporate subsidiaries. Guilford/PanAm Operations controls the track from Worcester-Portland, train crews and dispatching. CSX controls everything else from Marketing the train to obtaining the necessary freight cars and bills shippers exclusively regardless of direction.

Is this train movement an example of Trackage Rights or Haulage Rights? Since only one answer can be correct and accurate a supplementary question results. Occasionally, we learn of or view a photo of a Guilford/PanAm locomotive (owned or leased) on CSX track working off “horsepower hours.” Since POSE/SEPO is, essentially, a CSX train operating over former B&M owned rails from Barbers-Portland and those rails are now owned by different corporate or state organizations-and CSX SEPO/POSE is a run through movement, i.e. it performs no switching or car cuts along the route, how is it that Guilford/PanAm would owe CSX “horsepower hours?”

Viewed differently and from the perspective of a different carrier (P&W) operating over much of the same track (those coal and limestone trains P&W operates from someplace in Rhode Island to Bow NH via Barbers-Ayer-Lowell-Bow or, alternatively, the P&W coal trains operated over PAS destined for the Mt. Tom generating plant and reverse runs with MTs)-Guilford/PanAm power is never reported as working off “horsepower hours” on the P&W.

The subject of trackage or haulage rights and the consequent assignment of locomotives is not a difference lacking a distinction with CSX and P&W since Guilford/PanAm appears chronically short of necessary numbers of locomotives capable of achieving and maintaining those ludicrous low speeds for hours on end.

A well written but not entirely accurate assessment. That isn't meant as offensive, as clearly you are looking to clarify this movement.

Firstly, Guilford no longer exists -- it is simply Pan Am Railways and Pan Am Southern leasing Maine Central and Boston & Maine lines and equipment to Springfield Terminal. Confused yet? Don't bother looking into what Pan Am Systems is...

The POSE/SEPO is a run-through movement with CSX and Pan Am. PAR operates the train from Barbers to Portland using CSX equipment. Similarly, Pan Am may operate trains from Barbers or Gardner to Bow, but this is a different arrangement with different terms. The CSX arrangement makes interchange much more efficient, as trains tend to move faster without a power change.

The deal as I understand it works that PAR can use two sets of CSX power, each set spending no more than 24 hours on property. That means a trip up to Portland, a refuel/service, and flip back down to CSX.

Pan Am had been owing Horsepower Hours (HPH) to CSX, and to pay this off they sent a unit or two to work on CSX system. However, often times these units were in poor condition and would be rejected by CSX power control. This led to CSX changing its power arrangement with Pan Am to keep power west of Lowell. However, Pan Am renegociated a deal to once again bring CSX power to Portland. I'm not sure this deal, but it would seem no Pan Am power has been on CSX as of late (But I could be mistaken as I obviously have no idea of the location of all PAR power at any given time).

Some PAR units may have been serving on CSX, and if so, they would be 6-axle units, which are more useful in long-haul service to CSX than 4-axle switchers, because PAR's switcher units tend to not comply with CSX's standards.

Also, PAR has in the past had arrangements where they lease units from a railroad and simply let those units continue on that railroad's property as if they were PAR's. For example, PAR leased 2 NS SD40-2s (a few years ago) and let NS use them, essentially creating a paperwork cash repayment of HPHs.

[neman2]

One minor correction, according to the Pan Am system map, Pan Am owns the track from Barbers to Ayer, not the MBTA.

[deathtopumpkins]

One minor correction, according to the Pan Am system map, Pan Am owns the track from Barbers to Ayer, not the MBTA.

It appears the state rail map would agree.

[boatsmate]

Another reason you will not see Pan AM power on a run through on SEPO is that they can not lead on the B&A. Pan Am only has 2 or 3 locos with Cab signals. and they are primarily used on the Springfield line. the other reason for PAN AM paying off Horse power hours is they used to steal the loco for days and weeks at a time and then return them to CSX when they came looking for them. that's why they only allow 2 sets on the line at any given time.

[MEC407]

Video by Signal Hill Productions of SEPO through Old Orchard Beach at what appears to be timetable track speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ogSnY5RHyA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[gokeefe]

Video by Signal Hill Productions of SEPO through Old Orchard Beach at what appears to be timetable track speed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ogSnY5RHyA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If that's not timetable speed it must be very close. I'm guessing right around 40 MPH.

[newpylong]

They should be going 40 pretty much the whole way on the Portland Division outside of Old Orchard Beach.

[WN&P]

Hi all-

I've been lurking this forum for probably the last 5 years and just decided to make an account. I spent a few years in Nashua, going to Ayer a lot and recently spent 3 years living in Portland and now live in Dover and work at UNH so I'm able to keep pretty good tabs on District 2 trains. From what I remember from last summer SEPO used to get into Rigby in the evening hours. I've been noticing POSE going through Durham at about 7:30 - 8:00 am pretty regularly in the last few months. I know there is no set schedule, but it does appear that in to Rigby in the evening- turn around and out by the next morning makes sense with the time-limit on the CSX power. Is this generally the case? From the pattern I've noticed, it would make sense to me that POSE leaves Rigby after the Amtrak 680 goes through at around 5:30 am. Does anyone know if that is the case? I saw the POSE go through Durham at 7:30 this morning but then heard the crew tie down in Atkinson/Plaistow at around 10:30, which doesn't seem that far for one crew.

Thanks

[doublestack]

Hi all-

I've been lurking this forum for probably the last 5 years and just decided to make an account. I spent a few years in Nashua, going to Ayer a lot and recently spent 3 years living in Portland and now live in Dover and work at UNH so I'm able to keep pretty good tabs on District 2 trains. From what I remember from last summer SEPO used to get into Rigby in the evening hours. I've been noticing POSE going through Durham at about 7:30 - 8:00 am pretty regularly in the last few months. I know there is no set schedule, but it does appear that in to Rigby in the evening- turn around and out by the next morning makes sense with the time-limit on the CSX power. Is this generally the case? From the pattern I've noticed, it would make sense to me that POSE leaves Rigby after the Amtrak 680 goes through at around 5:30 am. Does anyone know if that is the case? I saw the POSE go through Durham at 7:30 this morning but then heard the crew tie down in Atkinson/Plaistow at around 10:30, which doesn't seem that far for one crew.

Thanks

Nothing new, the other day they had PO-2, a local out of Rigby change crew in Brunswick!

[gokeefe]

Hi all-

I've been lurking this forum for probably the last 5 years and just decided to make an account.

Welcome Aboard! I did much the same myself before coming out of the shadows and consequently I have a lot of respect for the trouble you've taken to learn about things before directly engaging in discussion.

Enjoy!

[MEC407]

Video by Signal Hill Productions of SEPO through Old Orchard Beach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8SGLpYzk-o" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[doublestack]

Interesting catch from this 5/24 SEPO video. The last 50 high-cube box cars appear to have Warwick Railroad (WRWK) reporting marks. Doesn't P&W own WR? Would these cars be out for lease by CMQ or maybe NBSR. Any thoughts?
Thanks to Defect Detector for the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KQJgQUBxuU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[KSmitty]

I think you grabbed the wrong link. Thats video is a 25 car PORU.

WRWK is Warwick, and it is a P&W subsidiary. The boxes are likely owned by GE, or another large rail car ownership company, who leases the use of the WRWK reporting mark.

If it they moved in a cluster of 50 cars its possible they are headed to Irving or CM&Q, or just coming on lease to Pan Am. Its also possible they are headed to Waterville for work. Sometime last year something like 90 boxes came into Waterville for contract work, so its not unprecedented.