I was wondering, why wasn't B&M , D&H, Milwaukee, and Rock Island included in Conrail. Was it because CRIP and Milwaukee ran west of Chicago and they were only worried about east of Chicago.
Railroad Forums
Why wasn't B&M, D&H, Milwaukee & CRIP in Conrail
- Discussion related to the operations and equipment of Consolidated Rail Corp. (Conrail) from 1976 to its present operations as Conrail Shared Assets. Official web site can be found here: CONRAIL.COM.
Moderators: TAMR213, keeper1616
I believe B&M opted out. I don't think D&H was in bankruptcy at the time. Milwaukee and Rock Island didn't have the economic impact (or political significance) of the properties that went into Conrail.
I'm not sure about the B&M and D&H - they must have decided they could do alright on their own, with their Canadian connections.
As for the western roads, there was more than enough competition from the BN, C&NW, MoPac, Soo Line and so on, all relatively healthy. The CRI&P went into Chapter 13 bankruptcy, but had more than enough value as parts and real estate to pay its creditors. As for the Milwaukee Road, they weren't in immediate danger of collapsing, they just needed relief long enough to (unwisely) get rid of the Pacific Extension and reinvent themselves as Milwaukee II.
As for the western roads, there was more than enough competition from the BN, C&NW, MoPac, Soo Line and so on, all relatively healthy. The CRI&P went into Chapter 13 bankruptcy, but had more than enough value as parts and real estate to pay its creditors. As for the Milwaukee Road, they weren't in immediate danger of collapsing, they just needed relief long enough to (unwisely) get rid of the Pacific Extension and reinvent themselves as Milwaukee II.
IIRC, the D&H was given trackage rights to Potomac Yard in Washington DC to interchange with the Southeastern carriers and also into Newark, NJ too, to access the NY/NJ market. Also, I believe they received financial aid (loans?, engines?) from the Feds. in an attempt to help them be a viable competitor to ConRail, aka, Conrail. Wasn't there thinking to do a similar Conrail-esque takeover with the Rock? I believe they were going to name in "Farmrail" (not to be confused with the short-line/light density operator that came into existence later).
The D&H wasn't bankrupt, plain and simple. The Erie Lackawanna wasn't supposed to be included either, but Hurricane Agnes caused damage that wiped out their cash reserves and put them into bankruptcy. Even then, the initial plan was to give most of the EL to the Chessie System, so it would remain as a competitor to Conrail. But their unions couldn't come to an agreement with Chessie and Chessie backed out.
So to create token competition for Conrail, the D&H was given trackage rights from Binghamton to Buffalo, outright given the former PRR from Scranton to Sunbury, and trackage rights both from Scranton to Oak Island and Sunbury to Potomac Yard. They also were given their pick of engines, taking former Reading GP39-2's and former LV GP38-2s and C420s, plus cabooses and other freight cars.
The Boston & Maine chose to reorganize on it's own in 1974 rather than be included in Conrail, which is probably just as well as I'm sure Conrail would have just abandoned most of it, or it would have been the Massachusetts equivalent of the Southern Tier Line.
The Rock Island didn't outright collpase until 1979, and the MIlwaukee still later. The railroads included in Conrail are primarily the roads that were affected by the collapse of Penn Central in 1970.
So to create token competition for Conrail, the D&H was given trackage rights from Binghamton to Buffalo, outright given the former PRR from Scranton to Sunbury, and trackage rights both from Scranton to Oak Island and Sunbury to Potomac Yard. They also were given their pick of engines, taking former Reading GP39-2's and former LV GP38-2s and C420s, plus cabooses and other freight cars.
The Boston & Maine chose to reorganize on it's own in 1974 rather than be included in Conrail, which is probably just as well as I'm sure Conrail would have just abandoned most of it, or it would have been the Massachusetts equivalent of the Southern Tier Line.
The Rock Island didn't outright collpase until 1979, and the MIlwaukee still later. The railroads included in Conrail are primarily the roads that were affected by the collapse of Penn Central in 1970.
lvrr325 wrote:The railroads included in Conrail are primarily the roads that were affected by the collapse of Penn Central in 1970.This is correct. I meant to say that, too.
B&M was in competition with Conrail in the New England market. They felt that they could reorganize by streamlining the main lines, by avoiding Boston, and abandoning branches. The also got rid of much of the tax and maintenance bills by selling Boston area lines to MBTA.
B&M and D&H worked together, and used N&W as their western connection, and the southern roads in DC. D&H was owned by N&W then.
B&M and D&H worked together, and used N&W as their western connection, and the southern roads in DC. D&H was owned by N&W then.
Weren't D&H and B&M (and possibly MEC) considered as part of the MARC/EL(Mid Atlantic Rail, not to be confused with the latter day Maryland Transit Agency) proposal to create a second competing Northeast railroad? I thought that there was also some consideration into merging them into N&W although their financial conditions precluded that (Dereco, IINM was a remnant of the abortive C&O/N&W merger proposal of the 1960's which was supposed to have incorporated those roads into a large system to compete with Penn Central)...
As far as the Milwaukee Roads inclusion it doesn't seem like the regulatory climate of the time would have favored a true transcontinental merger. I do remember reading that ATSF considered purchasing EL and some "Japanese Shipping interests" also considered buying EL and the C.M,St.P & P for a coast to coast "landbridge" for containers....
As far as the Milwaukee Roads inclusion it doesn't seem like the regulatory climate of the time would have favored a true transcontinental merger. I do remember reading that ATSF considered purchasing EL and some "Japanese Shipping interests" also considered buying EL and the C.M,St.P & P for a coast to coast "landbridge" for containers....
Simple. CR would have been a government subsidized transcontinental composed of duplicate and redundant lines, and we all know what those are like. CN anyone?
Let's just repeat this. The Milwaukee Road didn't fail until the 1980s - and failed mostly due to long-term deferred maintenance causing the line to become less and less comptetitive while the management saught out a partner to merge the road with. Had nothing to do with the northeast or Penn Central.
MARC stood for Mid-Atlantic Rail Corporation. It was to include in one variant the CNJ, LV, L&HR, and Reading, in another also the EL. There's some more info on it in on the Erie Lackawanna forum in one of the sticky threads. I don't recall ever reading that it would include the D&H or B&M.
The D&H was solvent but had a high debt load, which is one reason the N&W never merged it. The figure of 88 million dollars comes to mind, I think from an older magazine article discussing the D&H bankruptcy.
MARC stood for Mid-Atlantic Rail Corporation. It was to include in one variant the CNJ, LV, L&HR, and Reading, in another also the EL. There's some more info on it in on the Erie Lackawanna forum in one of the sticky threads. I don't recall ever reading that it would include the D&H or B&M.
The D&H was solvent but had a high debt load, which is one reason the N&W never merged it. The figure of 88 million dollars comes to mind, I think from an older magazine article discussing the D&H bankruptcy.
GulfRail wrote:Simple. CR would have been a government subsidized transcontinental composed of duplicate and redundant lines, and we all know what those are like. CN anyone?
CN is no longer owned by the Cananadian Government they were sold to the public on the Toronto Stock Exchange I want to say in the early 1990's I beleve.
no matter the weather or the country I'll still be trackside!
D&H and EL were owned by N&W. B&M tried to force its inclusion in Dereco (N&W), but could not come to terms the terms of it. N&W didn't want it either, as it was bankrupt. B&M thought about Conrail, but in the end, the trustees decided that they would be better off reorganizing. The sale to Guilford ended the reorganization. MEC was in the black.
Things may have been much different if EL had not gone bankrupt. We may have had MARC-EL. D&H would have had a friendly western connection. If EL stayed out of Big Blue, and there was no MARC-EL, because LV , CNJ, and RDG went to CR. Then they might have given either EL, or D&H (doesn't matter--both N&W affiliates) rights to POT Yard, in order to connect with the southern carriers.
I agree on the second point, they did not need a bail out in the midwest. BN, CNW, SOO, MP, etc., all covered the MILW and Rock territories. As we have seen, most of the main parts of the Rock were sold to other class 1 lines, or regionals.
Things may have been much different if EL had not gone bankrupt. We may have had MARC-EL. D&H would have had a friendly western connection. If EL stayed out of Big Blue, and there was no MARC-EL, because LV , CNJ, and RDG went to CR. Then they might have given either EL, or D&H (doesn't matter--both N&W affiliates) rights to POT Yard, in order to connect with the southern carriers.
I agree on the second point, they did not need a bail out in the midwest. BN, CNW, SOO, MP, etc., all covered the MILW and Rock territories. As we have seen, most of the main parts of the Rock were sold to other class 1 lines, or regionals.
Erie-Lackawanna got added to Mid-Atlantic Rail Corporation after EL "went bankrupt". The Preliminary and Final System Plans have some details.
Not sure what the quotes are about, the EL was forced to declare bankruptcy after repairs from damage due to Hurricaine Agnes became more than the company could handle. Prior to that, the company had been planning to use some of it's cash reserves to upgrade the yard at Marion Ohio.