Conrail's "Big X"

[scottychaos]

In the current Trains mag is a great article about the events that led to up to the big CR split of 1999.
the article talks about Conrail's "big X"
major CR lines that cross around Cleveland, forming the shape of an X.

Who is currently running the various arms of the X?
Where is the actual crossing?
and what were the predecessor roads of the X?

thanks,
Scot

[shlustig]

Cleveland to Buffalo and points east thereof is now CSX

Cleveland to Pittsburgh and points east is now NS

Cleveland to Toledo and points west is now NS

Cleveland to St. Louis is now CSX

Prior to the present arrangement, all routes were Conrail, formerly Penn Central.

Prior to PC, Cleveland to Pittsburgh was Pennsylvania RR and the rest were New York Central.

There is no crossing-at-grade (as at Rochelle, for example). There are connections between the CSX and NS routes on the SE side of Cleveland and at Berea. Under PC and CR, the routes through Cleveland were used interchangably. Not so today.

[MR77100]

One correction: the trackage west of Terre Haute, IN to St. Louis is ex-PRR. Conrail kept whatever line was the most direct route, and the Big Four Route was abandoned west of Paris, IL. However, to the east, the ex-PRR lines suffered.

[Redwards]

Just got around to reading the article. I did some searching online to research the lineage of the routes and came across an early disposition map that had CSX getting the entire NYC - Chicago ex-NYC route. Is there a particular reason why NS ended up getting the Cleveland - Chicago portion of the route? Was it a government requirement to get to the 58/42 (NS/CSX) percentage split? If I'm not mistaken both NS and CSX had existing routes to get them from Cleveland to Chicago.

Also, in the article Conrail's LeVan seemed to be concerned about CSX's financial position and it's ability to maintain the physical plant of the railroad. Any word on how CSX and NS are doing in keeping up the lines they inherited from Conrail?

Thanks,
Reed

[shlustig]

IIRC, the idea was for NS and CSX to each have a double-tracked and a single-tracked line into Chicago. NS got the ex-NYC along with the ex-NKP, while CSX got the ex-PRR (Ft. Wayne Line) to supplement the ex-B&O mainline. I don't recall any serious proposal to give CSX the Water Level Route west of Berea.

As far as maintenance goes, LeVan was correct in his estimation that CSX couldn't afford to maintain the ex-Conrail trackage to the former CR standards. NS does a much better job.

For those who enjoy "What If?" games, think of how it would have been if CSX was the company that was dismembered.

[LCJ]

LeVan was not only concerned about the future maintenance of CR lines, but also the condition of the CSX physical plant at the time of the proposed/ill-fated CR/CSX merger. It was common knowledge that Richmond had a history of under-investment in this regard, not having kept up proper standards, and not having made much in the way of modernizations to their overall system since the formation of CSX.

Unfortunately, Ron Conway, with all of his faults, fell right into this trap -- a combination of long-deferred maintenance and political intrigue in the form of anti-outsider feelings in Jax.

And yes -- that is a very interesting "What if?"

[Sir Ray]

I have not read the article, but I do recall around that time (apparently a few months prior to CSX announcing it's original plan to buy ConRail outright, before NS became involved) that the big X plan was just that - Conrail planned to sell off all secondaries, branches, industrial tracks and so on and simply concentrate on long hauls only along the mainlines mentioned above - I think the Penns Grove secondary was to be among the first lines sold, with plenty of conditions attached. Does the article bring this up?

(Ironically instead of a long-haul only railroad, ConRail ended up as a terminal road in a Philly, NJ and Detriot, jointly owned by NS & CSX)

[LCJ]

...a few months prior to CSX announcing it's original plan to buy ConRail outright...

This never happened as described here. Conrail and CSX in fact announced a "Merger of Equals," although as we all know now, it was not meant to be.

...Conrail planned to sell off all secondaries, branches, industrial tracks and so on and simply concentrate on long hauls...

This is a bit of an exaggeration. All line/cluster sales were considered on a case-by-case basis, with a very specific set of criteria taken into account for each. As example, the Monongahela (an "off X" branch line that contributed significant revenue from the WV coal mines) was never seriously considered for sale. The Popes Creek Secondary is another. There were several other areas that never would have been sold off.

[Sir Ray]

...Conrail planned to sell off all secondaries, branches, industrial tracks and so on and simply concentrate on long hauls...

This is a bit of an exaggeration. All line/cluster sales were considered on a case-by-case basis, with a very specific set of criteria taken into account for each. As example, the Monongahela (an "off X" branch line that contributed significant revenue from the WV coal mines) was never seriously considered for sale. The Popes Creek Secondary is another. There were several other areas that never would have been sold off.

OK, as I said I was recalling it (and not all that well) from articles in RailPace and Railway Age (on-line news blurbs) from 8+ years ago, and they were kinda sketchy then. The 'just mainline' plan sort of stuck in my mind. However I do remember Penns Grove being the poster child for potential line sell-off -- edit: Searched for old archives, to clear up my incorrect memories of this period. Apparently the sale of Conrail southern Jersey lines to Rail Development Corp. was fairly well advanced, as evidenced by this snippet from the Danville Flyer of Feb 1997 :

Conrail today announced that, following a thorough analysis of three separate bids, it has chosen to negotiate exclusively with Railroad Development Corporation of Pittsburgh to transfer ownership and freight operating rights of about 185 miles of rail lines in southernNew Jersey.
...
Under the terms of the proposed transaction, Railroad Development Corporationwould obtain rail freight routes serving the following corridors: Trenton-Bordentown; Windsor-Bordentown;Bordentown-Pennsauken-Camden;Pennsauken-Moorestown-Mount Holly;Camden-Winslow Junction-Tuckahoe-Beesley’s Point; Camden- Woodbury;Woodbury-Swedesboro; and Woodbury-Vineland-Millville. The sale will include part of Conrail’s Pavonia Yard in Camden. Conrail would continue to own and serve customers located along the Penns Grove Secondary Line, between Woodbury and Deepwater, and control dispatching oftrains over other lines needed to reachthe Penns Grove Secondary. The South Jersey lines are among those Conrail announced in January 1996 would be part of a program to sell approximately 1,800 miles of light-density rail lines across its 12-state system in an effort to expand its partnerships with short line and regional operators, who have demonstrated the ability to enhancecustomer service by being more focused on the day-to-day requirements of customers on these lines

.

[LCJ]

Yeah, the "X" was the "crown jewel."

A major part of the consideration for each bit of potential line/cluster sale was the projected revenue as compared to the projected maintenance cost. Also, any prospective buyers (if there were any) had to pass muster as well, in so far as viability and financial stability went.

I'm not familiar with Penns Grove as such. Several other lines/clusters that were potentially "on the block" had little chance of attracting viable buyers. Abandonment would have been the next considered course of action on some parcels.

It will be interesting to see if CSX and NS ever get to where they consider selling or abandoning some of the same pieces of property.

[brianpwestgate]

I think that had CR purchased CSX, not much would have changed. NS would have purchased from CR all the PRR, Erie, & T&OC. Instead of today's CR we'd perhaps see ADBF's Detroit Connecting running the Detroit Terminal, Union Belt, and West Detroit branch. In Penn and Jersey we'd perhaps see an expanded Philadelphia Belt Line, and new Central of New Jersey and West Jersey & Seashore railroads. CR would have continued to slough off various branch lines throughout its system.

[Noel Weaver]

I think that had CR purchased CSX, not much would have changed. NS would have purchased from CR all the PRR, Erie, & T&OC. Instead of today's CR we'd perhaps see ADBF's Detroit Connecting running the Detroit Terminal, Union Belt, and West Detroit branch. In Penn and Jersey we'd perhaps see an expanded Philadelphia Belt Line, and new Central of New Jersey and West Jersey & Seashore railroads. CR would have continued to slough off various branch lines throughout its system.

Had Conrail purchased CSX, maybe we would have seen a big difference
today in the operation of the railroad. Conrail believed in decent track
maintenance which is something that CSX apparently does not do well in.
Conrail also believed that the "troops" are important to a successful
railroad operation and this is something that apparently is not in CSX's
book either. Conrail knew how to move trains, freight, vans, passenger
it did not matter what, it moved and quite well too.
The reference to the "troops" does not mean that Conrail was a slacker,
they demanded compliance with rules, signals etc but their approach was
different than that of CSX and the vast majority of the people respected
it for sure. In the Conrail days, we took pride in our work and in our
railroad, I do not think that is true today.
In 1987, I had enough confidence in Conrail to leave an absolute secure
and good job with Metro-North to return to Conrail in the Albany area. A
few others also had confidence in Conrail and did the same thing. Fast
forward to the past four or five years under CSX and several really good
engineers have chosen to give up their rights with CSX and hire with
Amtrak as new employees even given the possible problems with Amtrak
in the future.
I think the CSX will continue to "flounder" around and be probably the
worst railroad in the industry for some time.
This kind of reminds me of the Penn Central which at the time of its
merger had a lot of good possibilities. Unfortunately, Penn Central did not
take advantage of the good possibilities and instead continued to let the
railroad go downhill until it reach a point where recovery just was not
possible.
I had hopes that we would never witness another Penn Central disaster but now I am not so sure with CSX in time.
Noel Weaver

[LCJ]

In the Conrail days, we took pride in our work and in our
railroad, I do not think that is true today.

This statement is, in my experience, generally true. I had an opportunity to work with people all over the Conrail system at one time or another. While there were pockets of resentment and lack of respect for the company, people generally did take pride in what they did and where they worked.

The worst areas were where people had been required to move several times just to keep their jobs. I did some work at the National Customer Service Center in Pittsburgh. There were some very angry people there (clerks -- you remember them don't you?) who had uprooted their lives a few times for Conrail, and didn't feel appreciated for it. But hey -- they had an employee of the month program -- ha ha!

CSX is really different, for sure. While I don't think the PC analogy holds up, there definitely is a pattern of deferred maintenance that can only lead to problems in the future. The "us vs. them" management philosophy is destructive, too.

The CR/CSX merger would have been a disaster, I believe. It began to unravel almost as soon as LeVan and Snow signed the first agreement. The difference in approaches to dealing with people was one of the potential problems that I don't think LeVan considered completely. How they would accommodate NS in the Northeast was another potential stumbling block.

But alas, 'twas never meant to be...

[conrail_engineer]

The CR/CSX merger would have been a disaster, I believe. It began to unravel almost as soon as LeVan and Snow signed the first agreement. The difference in approaches to dealing with people was one of the potential problems that I don't think LeVan considered completely. How they would accommodate NS in the Northeast was another potential stumbling block.

But alas, 'twas never meant to be...

Fascinating. To this day, there are plenty of old heads who bemoan that the CR/CSX merger fell through. And they remember the public statements: That Conrail and CSX had "similar cultures" and that CSX was the railroad most alike to CR.

Apparently Ron Conway and some of his lieutenants thought so, too. He and they gambled on the Big Chair and other plum spots, and got shot down like caged parakeets.

But, in talking with some old-timer B&O men who work on our run, as we tie in with the old Newcastle Sub, I have to wonder: Was CSX really that different from Conrail, or did it suddenly TURN different after the split?

The "deferred maintenance" was a fact, true. But even the old-time B&O types are shocked at management's heavy handedness today.

[LCJ]

Fascinating. To this day, there are plenty of old heads who bemoan that the CR/CSX merger fell through. And they remember the public statements: That Conrail and CSX had "similar cultures" and that CSX was the railroad most alike to CR.

I believe this was a true statement, but with a qualifier of "among available choices for merger..."

Apparently Ron Conway and some of his lieutenants thought so, too. He and they gambled on the Big Chair and other plum spots, and got shot down like caged parakeets.

Good analogy. Conway and crew's arrogance, their having no experience other than with Conrail's east/west system, and a lack of awareness of the lurking "shooters" (who pretty openly expressed strong resentment of the Conrail people coming to Jax) are the factors at work there.

But, in talking with some old-timer B&O men who work on our run, as we tie in with the old Newcastle Sub, I have to wonder: Was CSX really that different from Conrail, or did it suddenly TURN different after the split?

B&O was just one small part of CSX. There were conflicts within management about things like this. The hardliners came to have the most influence over time.