Horizon Coach Refurbishment

[gokeefe]

Should be the same. State supported services don't have coach attendants. If there's a cafe car it should have the same number of attendants regardless. It's worth noting that Superliners and Horizon cars have nearly identical seating capacity. The real limitation is on baggage which generally isn't a problem for corridor services.

[electricron]

Superliner coach seating capacity is 62 upper level, and 12 lower level with accessible access.
Horizon accessible coach seating capacity is 72, 76 seating capacity standard without accessible seats. The 8 horizon cafe/business car seats 19 business class with 32 seats at 8 tables.
Simply, S 62 & 74; H 19, 72, & 76.

Today, a typical consist is a locomotive, 2 Superliners accessible, 1 Superliner cafe, and a NPTU or second locomotive. Occasionally additional cars are added to the consist. That 74 + 62 + 74 seats, totaling 210 seats.
Replacing with like type Horizon cars, 72 + 32 + 72 totals just 176 seats. Another 34 seats will be needed to equal what's on the train now, therefore an additional car will be needed.

Superliners weigh around 74 tons each, times 3 equals 222 tons.
Horizons weigh around 50 tons each, times 4 equals 200 tons.

But every platform at every station in OK and TX are low. Wheelchair bound passengers can board and alight from Superliners with the manually operated ramp stored in their vestibules. Wheelchair bound passengers will have to have mini-high platforms built at every station at a minimum - or have automated lifts installed on both sides of every coach.

Sorry, Superliners will still be requested and preferred by both OK and TX. They are not going to spend money fixing the platforms nor fixing Horizon cars for wheelchair bound passengers.

[mtuandrew]

It also bothers me that we’re comparing a 74-seat LD-configured Superliner with a 72-seat corridor-configured Horizon. By rights we should be talking a 96-seat corridor Superliner or a 60-seat LD Horizon.

[eolesen]

The Heartland runs at ~50% load factor, so there's no reason to do a 1:1 replacement based on a difference of 34 seats that likely won't be filled.

Dropping from a trio of Superliners to Horizons would be 65% of the tonnage.

The high/low platform discussion has been beaten to death so many times I don't know why you keep trying.... Single level cars run on the Hiawatha (low level boarding at both ends) plus dozens of other corridor trains country-wide are low level boarding... I think they'll be just fine for OK/TX. Crank-em-up wheelchair lifts simply aren't that expensive and may already exist in the other stations.

[Tadman]

Sorry, Superliners will still be requested and preferred by both OK and TX. They are not going to spend money fixing the platforms nor fixing Horizon cars for wheelchair bound passengers.

I don't know how that has much bearing on what actually is supplied unless there is a stipulation in the contract and a cost attached. As Eoleson notes, there is no need to fix platforms and it might result in lighter trains. This is actually a perfect train for horizon cars.

[electricron]

It also bothers me that we’re comparing a 74-seat LD-configured Superliner with a 72-seat corridor-configured Horizon. By rights we should be talking a 96-seat corridor Superliner or a 60-seat LD Horizon.

60 seat configurations of Horizon cars do not exist today, 96 seat configurations of Superliners do not exist outside of California. That is what exists today, of course changes could be made in the future.

The largest problem I foresee for Horizon cars is finding a future maintenance base for them. Eventually, new Siemens built coaches for Midwest and California services is going to displace them from coach yards and maintenance facilities in California and Chicago. Whereas Indianapolis will remain the “heavy” maintenance base, they will need a new “light” maintenance base.

The existing Heartland Flyer’s “light” maintenance base is in Fort Worth. It is relatively small in scope and set up to handle Superliners, not Horizon nor Amfleet cars. It does not even have a shelter for railcars, all work is performed outside in the weather.. Of course again, changes can be made in the future. The only coach yards with room available for Amtrak to use quickly for around 100 Horizon cars are in New Orleans and Miami. Fort Worth certainly does not have room for 100 Horizon cars, but it does have room for whatever the Heartland Flyer needs.

Where will you send the three Superliners the Heartland Flyer uses daily? Are they really needed anywhere else?

If single level cars are the future for the Heartland Flyer, why not new Siemens coaches with a new Siemens coach/cab on one end so Amtrak could retire their NPTUs “sooner” rather than later? Boomer Sooner and Hock ‘Em Horns.

[gokeefe]

New coaches are still several years away but I agree that they could be a natural choice in the future. Very much agreed with other perspectives shared on wheelchair access. Crank lifts should work just fine.

With regards to extra Superliner coaches any additional flexibility for Amtrak in their fleet can used elsewhere for peak travel. The bottom line is whether or not the state sponsors see a budget savings from the cars. I strongly suspect they would. Also appreciate the reminder with regards to the doors and Michigan/Wisconsin service.

Seems like getting Amfleets out of the Midwest and California would be a very high priority. Here's to hoping Amtrak will be able to finally capitalize on fleet flexibility from new rolling stock. It's amazing what they've done already.

[eolesen]

Arguably, I'd think Horizons *might* have enough in common with the Bombardier bi-levels operated by Trinity Railway Express that some of the light or even heavy maintenance could be done by Herzog at TRE's maintenance facility in Irving (about 10 miles east of downtown Fort Worth).

I'd expect the Siemens cars are going to go to corridors where utilization is higher. One trip a day routes like the Heartland deserve the fully depreciated stuff that has the downtime in the schedule to fix whatever breaks...

[mtuandrew]

I don’t think BBD Bilevels and BBD Comets share a lot of components necessarily, being designed by different companies and for different roads at different times. Herzog could definitely do running repairs but beyond that, it’s off to an Amtrak facility.

[Backshophoss]

The mixed car fleet of UTA's Frontrunner is Comet I coaches and the "sausage" Bi levels, seems to run well together.
Should be noted,the Comets were rebuilt from the ground up.Could have replaced the Air brake setup to what is used on the "sausage" cars.

[njtmnrrbuff]

In the short term, California is going to be getting single level Siemens trainsets for California to replace the single levels. It will probably be a similar order to that of the Chicago corridor pool. In the long term, California is looking at purchasing multilevels to replace the Surfliners and California Cars.

Running the Horizons, Amfleets, and Comarrow trainsets in California have added to dwell times. The same thing goes with the Midwest.

[mtuandrew]

Running the Horizons, Amfleets, and Comarrow trainsets in California have added to dwell times. The same thing goes with the Midwest.

Guess that means the single-level fleet should go where dwell time isn’t as much of an issue: long-distance eastern service primarily off-Corridor (Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited), medium-distance regionals, and slower service like the Heartland Flyer and the future Gulf Coaster.

[matthewsaggie]

Should be the same. State supported services don't have coach attendants. If there's a cafe car it should have the same number of attendants regardless. It's worth noting that Superliners and Horizon cars have nearly identical seating capacity. The real limitation is on baggage which generally isn't a problem for corridor services.

The NC supported Carolinian (79&80) has a Coach Attendant for 4 coaches, plus an Attendant for the Business Class car, plus a LSA for the cafe.

[Backshophoss]

Remember that the Horizon Fleet was "built on the cheap" during a low point in Amtrak's history,trainline controlled power doors were a
"deleted option",along with the door track heaters that were normal to a Comet car built for commuter service.

[Tadman]

I don’t think BBD Bilevels and BBD Comets share a lot of components necessarily, being designed by different companies and for different roads at different times. Herzog could definitely do running repairs but beyond that, it’s off to an Amtrak facility.

Bingo. The cigar cars were designed by Hawker for GO, and the horizon/comet was designed by Pullman for Erie. They just happen to be under the same roof these days.

Things to consider car-to-car when evaluating commonality:

Wheel size
Truck style
HVAC equipment
Grab irons
Window size
Door size and mounting
Marker lights
Toilet equipment
Interior lights
Draft gear/couplers
Transformers, fuses, electrical controls

Also, when considering if a shop is set up for a certain fleet, these items are worth considering:

What parts do they stock?
What sub-components are the people trained on? (see above list)
How heavy are the repairs?

A shop performing light repairs can handle a wider variety of cars, especially if those cars share truck or HVAC components. Fort Worth, for example, probably tightens screws, replaces fuses, greases door tracks, and in emergency will swap out an A/C unit or toilet component. Seattle, on the other hand, has a crane and drop table sized for the SC44 specifically. The guys there are trained on Talgos. You could bring in a horizon but it would take a bit more time to swap something if they don't see the part regularly.