Amtrak Diner and Food Service Discussion

[Arlington]

The Via Rail premium services lose even more per passenger than Amtrak which says two things:

1) it is very expensive (loss-inducing) to chase the premium market, and

2) having a same-continent competitor willing to lose trainloads of cash basically means you can't make money at it: why would anyone take Amtrak at a profitable price, when taking VIA guaranteed that the Canadian government would make their trip $750 more awesome then their Fare could pay for?

3) also note that there is ample evidence that sleeper service was always a loss-making Enterprise which the railroads maintained not to make money directly but to wine and dine people who could give them the freight business of large shippers.

Ridership on the Silver Starvation rose, revenues were stable, prices fell, but costs fell faster, meaning they moved in the direction of increasing social benefit and improved economics, as one is supposed to in a competitive market

Amtrak sees a path to breakeven and increased ridership which they have
methodically prototyped and proven on the Star & LSL (the Star seems to have been completely immune from the dire and certain predictions and polls of RR.net that it's success would be swallowed up in a wave of "never again" backlashes against its less premium experience)

[AgentSkelly]

Weird thought: Anderson is trying to find a reason to end the contract with Aramark and switch to a new commissary operator? Delta I know uses Gate Gormet..

[SouthernRailway]

I searched online and did not find anything that stated that the Via "Prestige" offering on the Canadian loses money. The Canadian loses a huge amount of money, and more than Amtrak trains do, but I saw nothing that stated that the "Prestige" offering itself does.

Arlington, you've been posting for years about your desire to get rid of dining and sleeping car services.

I'll look for someone else to give financial information about the "Prestige" offering.

[mtuandrew]

VIA loses money hand over fist on the Canadian, but Rocky Mountaineer makes enough to buy custom cars from Stadler. Both offer excellent service with sky-high fares - are the labor, facilities and trackage expenses that much more expensive for VIA? Does VIA subsidize east-of-Edmonton service with its mountain fares? Neither would surprise me.

[west point]

California services may repeat the NEC especially when more double tracking LAX - San Diego, LAX tru station track work and morenorth of LAX completed. As well the work around the Bay area.

[west point]

What we cannot understand is why isn't part of a ticket both coach and sleeper allocated to food service ?

[Arlington]

VIa Annual Report 2017
Page 9.
Montreal Halifax (Ocean). Subsidy per passenger = $514.
Toronto-Vancouver (Canadian). Subsidy per passenger = $392.

I guess my $750 figure is out of date or misremembered.

The problem with the deluxe market is, in the words of Bob Crandall, "in a free market, you're only as smart as your dumbest competitor"...For attracting pure leisure trips--people who are traveling because they want to, not because they have to--they are free to choose experiences anywhere in the world (train or non-train), and if the Canadians have both better scenery and bigger subsidies, how're you going to ever do any better than Canadian-size losses?

Particularly when the scenery available LDSLs* is basically (1) night or (2) pines or (3) empty plains.

So, unpack your boxed meal and lay it out better on the table in front of you before you post it to twitter. You're welcome.

*Except the Cardinal and bit of the Capitol, but still have the problem that if the train moved at a useful speed, even more of the scenery would be in darkness.

[SouthernRailway]

That has absolutely nothing to do with my assertion about Prestige class on the Canadian, or my point generally.

Prestige class on the Canadian is a very high-end portion of its sleeping car service, with very high prices. That should be profitable, or at least should have a lower loss per passenger-mile than the Canadian overall does. The Canadian's overall subsidy per passenger, for all passengers, is not the relevant point of comparison.

If any part of the service offering on a passenger train is sold to passengers who don't care much about price, it's sleeping car service-- and high-end sleeping car service in particular. If Amtrak hasn't figured out that someone who pays $630 for a one-way sleeping car ticket will probably pay a bit more, then it has a lot of work to do.

[gokeefe]

If Amtrak hasn't figured out that someone who pays $630 for a one-way sleeping car ticket will probably pay a bit more, then it has a lot of work to do.

They know the yield curve in this segment better than anyone else. I think they've come very close to maximizing revenues for what they offer. The simple decision is being made that the law of diminishing returns takes over past where they're at right now.

These are the same people who figured out how to maximize yield on the Northeast Regional (and made it operationally profitable) without hurting Acela and in the face of stuff competition from Megabus and Greyhound.

[SouthernRailway]

And these are the same people who never bothered to think outside the box and do something like Brightline, and who have generally been a travel industry follower instead of a travel industry leader. They ought to do a test route, such as the Crescent, with a two-class sleeping car service, since that's a route that seems to be more capacity-constrained than some others, and thus seems to have higher sleeping car prices generally than some others. As the Silver Starve has shown, changing the fares and service levels for sleeping cars can have a big impact on demand and profits and losses; lowering fares generated demand, and so how about taking advantage of capacity constraints and jacking up prices for some rooms and offering a fancier service just for those super-expensive rooms just to see how that works?

[Arlington]

capacity constraints

What % of annual sleepers-nights currently sell out?

[lordsigma12345]

Following up on Mr. SRY's report on the previous page, here is Fair Use from the NARP/RPA posting at their site:

Rail Passengers Association was disappointed to learn this week that Amtrak plans to extend its Contemporary Dining menu and dining service on to all of the long-distance trains east of the Mississippi.

The move takes effect October 1 -- the beginning of Fiscal 2020 -- as part of a package of changes rolling out on trains in the eastern half of the country. Western trains are not affected by this move.

“The problem isn’t the food itself, it’s the way the whole experience is handled,” said Rail Passengers President and CEO Jim Mathews. “We understand the need to make lighter fare available to match the tastes of many modern travelers. But as it’s currently executed on the Capitol and the Lake Shore, too often food items run short, there aren’t enough hot options, and the presentation is perfunctory and off-putting.”

Rail Passengers has been encouraging Amtrak to consider alternatives, but the railroad is moving forward with the plan to improve the financials on these routes. We agree with the need for a more flexible dining service, with more choice for passengers -- choice about what to eat, where to eat, and when to eat it -- but we think the Capitol and Lake Shore experience needs more improvement before going out to more routes.

We will continue to press for alternatives, and also to highlight the importance of good food to Amtrak riders on all routes. We have also offered to meet with Amtrak to offer constructive suggestions on food provisioning, menus and crew training,

There is nothing whatever to establish AT is excluded. Even if at this moment, there is an acceptable $650 fare to me NB on AT during Feb '20, this will be "the last straw".

"Western trains not affected", well, you're next.

On a posting on another rail forum, someone had indicated they reached out to RPA and they indicated that it appears the Auto Train is NOT included in the "contemporary dining" but I guess we'll find out for sure when the announcement comes out. HOWEVER it DOES appear COACH dining on the auto train may be removed or replaced with something else in January 14, 2020 according to the Amtrak dining car webpage. If both things are right it sounds like you would be ok in sleeper (if you get your reasonable fare of course.) https://www.amtrak.com/dining-car

[lordsigma12345]

There is nothing whatever to establish AT is excluded. Even if at this moment, there is an acceptable $650 fare to me NB on AT during Feb '20, this will be "the last straw".

"Western trains not affected", well, you're next.

https://media.amtrak.com/2019/07/amtrak ... xperience/
Here is the announcement regarding the Auto Train. The Auto Train is getting a new diner menu as of January and it will become exclusive to SLEEPER passengers... there will also be complimentary wine service and upgraded linens and towels.....could this possibly be a "preview" of what they have in mind for the western two night trains? Additionally they will be adding sleeper capacity to the train. Coach passengers will no longer have a diner and will instead have a CCC café car which will sell meals for purchase to coach passengers - the CCC will serve a complimentary continental breakfast to coach passengers as the diner does now - there will also be food trucks at the two AT stations.

Some additional things:

- they will be offering an oversized vehicle fare for vehicles that take more space including minivans, big SUVs, and full size pickups that don't fit in the regular area.
- there will be new discounts for larger groups traveling.
- AGR Select Executive folks will get priority offloading for free

I guess some silver lining in this one......

[Arlington]

Food trucks are a great solution at the Auto Train terminals--or any station that sees a large volume of passengers on/offs from one or two trains per day (Here picture ATL/Crescent too)

[David Benton]

A food truck was the refreshment stop on the Malahat train on Vancouver island in the Eighties. Adequate for the journey lenght, a good chance to get off the train and stretch the legs . I imagine more substantial fare could be offered with today's technology , probably offset by more stringent hygiene regulations requirements.