TrainManUPRR wrote:Does anyone know how much traction horsepower the P42DC and F40PH make in HEP mode?According to my GE Operating Manual for the P42-DC, the maximum gross HP is limited to 3650 for HEP, engine auxillary loads (HVAC in Cab, air compressor, on-board electrical eqpt., etc.) and traction vs. 4250 gross HP in non-HEP mode.
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Amtrak F40PH head end power questions
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The way it is now, is not the way it was.
When HEP first came about on Amtrak, on the P30CH and HEP cars, you could have multiple sources online providing HEP.
The system GE came up with was capable of phase syncing. Indeed each HEP car and P30CH had two seperate Detriot Diesels HEP skids But because of their 2 Detroit diesels for HEP they were a pain to get started. The unit on the Eng. side was the (A) set and the (B) set on the Firemens side. The starter relay was located in the same spot on both sets. If the B set did not turn over you could kick it with your boot, however if the "A" set did not start you had to lean over the "A" set and hit the relay box with a pipe to get it to start. Often they caught fire due to fact that the P30CH always had oil leaks and these made a mess of the HEP wires. This looked like a burning traction motor. Really was large fan on top of HEP units forcing air and of course smoke down below the frame of the GE. The system was nice when it worked, but it was a MAJOR pain in the arse to get the two skids synced. The HEP cars were a little better behaved because you had more room and did not have the messy FDL and it's oil. A couple of the HEP cars survived. P&W has one made from an E9B and CVSR has one made from an Amtrak ex army car.
The remaining 18 SDP40F that ran on ATSF rails were suposed to get this set up, but some dingaling had ordered the HEP wires too small when they were built. So they were traded to ATSF.
When HEP first came about on Amtrak, on the P30CH and HEP cars, you could have multiple sources online providing HEP.
The system GE came up with was capable of phase syncing. Indeed each HEP car and P30CH had two seperate Detriot Diesels HEP skids But because of their 2 Detroit diesels for HEP they were a pain to get started. The unit on the Eng. side was the (A) set and the (B) set on the Firemens side. The starter relay was located in the same spot on both sets. If the B set did not turn over you could kick it with your boot, however if the "A" set did not start you had to lean over the "A" set and hit the relay box with a pipe to get it to start. Often they caught fire due to fact that the P30CH always had oil leaks and these made a mess of the HEP wires. This looked like a burning traction motor. Really was large fan on top of HEP units forcing air and of course smoke down below the frame of the GE. The system was nice when it worked, but it was a MAJOR pain in the arse to get the two skids synced. The HEP cars were a little better behaved because you had more room and did not have the messy FDL and it's oil. A couple of the HEP cars survived. P&W has one made from an E9B and CVSR has one made from an Amtrak ex army car.
The remaining 18 SDP40F that ran on ATSF rails were suposed to get this set up, but some dingaling had ordered the HEP wires too small when they were built. So they were traded to ATSF.
Last edited by Alcochaser on Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How well would the HEP systems synchronize on the P30CH? Would it be exactly synchronous, or would the phase be slightly off? The reason I ask is because what worked for robust lighting and heating, even a radio, might have damaged modern electronics.
When they were working, which was a screaming ordeal to get them synced. Im not sure.
But the system was a huge HUGE pain in the rear, it got so bad Amtrak hired electricans to staff endpoints to get the HEP sets synced up. Auto train terminals as well.
But then again, back them no one had portable gadgets. Only the bathrooms had outlets for pax, which were clearly marked RAZORS ONLY. There were some plugs for sweepers, but those were when the car was on ground power.
But the system was a huge HUGE pain in the rear, it got so bad Amtrak hired electricans to staff endpoints to get the HEP sets synced up. Auto train terminals as well.
But then again, back them no one had portable gadgets. Only the bathrooms had outlets for pax, which were clearly marked RAZORS ONLY. There were some plugs for sweepers, but those were when the car was on ground power.
I forgot someone posted pictures, but here is the controls to the double Detriot setup in one of the HEP cars. They were the same sets as in the P30CH.
You had to make all the dials and whatnot agree on both sets before you could engage both.
http://hebners.net/amtrak/amtHEP/amt1298c.jpg
http://hebners.net/amtrak/amtHEP/amt1298b.jpg
The plan was orginaly to take all these HEP sets from the HEP cars, and put them directly into the SDP40F.
You had to make all the dials and whatnot agree on both sets before you could engage both.
http://hebners.net/amtrak/amtHEP/amt1298c.jpg
http://hebners.net/amtrak/amtHEP/amt1298b.jpg
The plan was orginaly to take all these HEP sets from the HEP cars, and put them directly into the SDP40F.
Alcochaser wrote:When they were working, which was a screaming ordeal to get them synced. Im not sure.That answers my question, I guess, though I suspect it was marked "razors only" more for load limitations and power spikes than for phase discrepancies. In any case, I think the only easy way to ensure synchronized power from multiple sources would be to run a DC line and convert it back to AC in each car.
But the system was a huge HUGE pain in the rear, it got so bad Amtrak hired electricans to staff endpoints to get the HEP sets synced up. Auto train terminals as well.
But then again, back them no one had portable gadgets. Only the bathrooms had outlets for pax, which were clearly marked RAZORS ONLY. There were some plugs for sweepers, but those were when the car was on ground power.
Oh, that reminds me. Back to the F40PH, did they have the capability to run 32vdc trainline-powered lights in their older steam-heated cars? I'm not sure if the trainline is standard on all locomotives, or only pre-HEP passenger units.
If they were syncing 2 gensets back in those days , then that would be pretty advanced for the times . remember the equilvalent of a desktop computer filled a room in those days . i wonder how they did it ?
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slchub wrote:Cool, thanks! Where'd you score the P42 manual? I've been looking for one for a few years- I already have the manuals for both the Dash8-32BWH and P40.TrainManUPRR wrote:Does anyone know how much traction horsepower the P42DC and F40PH make in HEP mode?According to my GE Operating Manual for the P42-DC, the maximum gross HP is limited to 3650 for HEP, engine auxillary loads (HVAC in Cab, air compressor, on-board electrical eqpt., etc.) and traction vs. 4250 gross HP in non-HEP mode.
TrainManUPRR wrote:Well, come work for Amtrak and they'll provide one to you for free!slchub wrote:Cool, thanks! Where'd you score the P42 manual? I've been looking for one for a few years- I already have the manuals for both the Dash8-32BWH and P40.TrainManUPRR wrote:Does anyone know how much traction horsepower the P42DC and F40PH make in HEP mode?According to my GE Operating Manual for the P42-DC, the maximum gross HP is limited to 3650 for HEP, engine auxillary loads (HVAC in Cab, air compressor, on-board electrical eqpt., etc.) and traction vs. 4250 gross HP in non-HEP mode.
Know anybody that wants to sell theirs? Lol
The electric in steam heated cars was generated by a wheel generator. As the car ran down the rails, a splicer gear spun a generator which charged a bank of old lead acid batteries. Most were 32V. But there are some oddball voltages in pre amtrak lightweight cars out there. However, some cars had Electrical demands too great for a wheel generator. (mostly the big domes and ATSF high level diners) These cars had onboard gensets.
I am reminded by an another oddball HEP setup. the E60CH. To provide HEP it was fitted with a motor-alternator setup. A motor fitted to the main output of the main transformer spun a shaft which was directly connected to a 480VAC Alternator.