Observation Cars - Retirement Question

[Tadman]

We've got a thread here about two Budd OBS cars used by Amtrak, with pictures posted by Mr. Deasy. How long did observation cars last on Amtrak, and were they retired piecemeal or was there a system-wide directive that observation cars were to be retired at one time?

[Gilbert B Norman]

In very broad strokes and off the top of my head, Mr. Dunville, Obs were sort of a novelty plaything of the "railfan mafia' within management during early Amtrak. None of such ever became part of the Heritage Fleet, i.e. equipped by Amtrak with HEP. Obs were assigned to Milw-Stl trains Nov 1971 to Sep 1973 when the ANF Turbos entered service. They were gone from the Broadway Limited by, say, 1974. I'll defer to others with dates of service on other trains.

There was not a major train to which at one time or the other they were assigned., but as new equipment entered service, their days became quite numbered.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

In very broad strokes and off the top of my head, Mr. Dunville, Obs were sort of a novelty plaything of the "railfan mafia' within management during early Amtrak. None of such ever became part of the Heritage Fleet, i.e. equipped by Amtrak with HEP.

That sounds about right. Some observation cars were even renovated with new seating and fixtures, so there was interest on the part of management. The big problem is that there wasn't a large double digit, homogeneous fleet of observation cars, such as CP's Park observation-dome-sleepers, but a tremendous mix of cars, some of which had been converted from sleepers to coaches.

Basically, the lightweight era round ended observation car only made sense as a means of selling alcoholic beverages to single male business travelers, which is precisely why they were found primarily on the "limited" trains. These cars were big profit makers, because the same Pullman porter served the drinks and tended to a handful of room accommodations. In the decade before Amtrak, business travel shifted to the airlines and many of these original observation cars lost their original purpose. From the standpoint of Amtrak, observation cars had absolutely no remaining function and would have cost a fortune to staff.

[NellieBly]

My one-time boss, the infamous F.S. "Pat" King, was responsible for getting observation cars back on the ends of trains during his tenure as VP Ops at Amtrak. I believe he held the post from about 1974 to 1977. The Broadway during those years carried a flat-end sleeper-obs, the Sunset ran with an ex-CZ dome-obs for most of the 1970s, and so did #5 and #6, I think. King put the tavern-lounge-obs cars back on the end of one of the Florida trains, but by 1980 it was once again running mid-train.

I well remember the ex-Denver Zephyr dome-obs on the St. Louis -- Milwaukee through service prior to the arrival of the Turboliners.

It was a nice era while it lasted. Lots of good equipment, and you were never quite sure where it would show up next. Amtrak's descent into mediocrity since then hasn't been pleasant to watch.

[JimBoylan]

There was a probably revenue observation car on the end of the last steam heated Florida train to New York. Since Amtrak converted none to Head End Power, It would be hard for any Amtrak revenue observation car service to have run after that. I don't count the J. Pinkley Harrison in Amtrak 1st Class service on the Pennsylvanian as an observation car. However, while it was being repaired or periodically inspected, Beech Grove was substituted for one round trip. Would you count that as the most recent public Amtrak revenue use?

[Gilbert B Norman]

The final "steam' train on the System was the Silver Star which ran so equipped May 1982. i rode such during March 1982 and I was unaware of any Obs assigned at that time. However, there could well have been a "PV" in consist at the end.

I think the apparent fixation with Obs came to an end when new equipment started to be placed in service. Quite surprised to learn from Ms. Bly that FSK had anything to do with such, as reputation would suggest he was hardly of the railfan contingent around Amtrak during "Pioneer Days'. In short, "WHAT THE H%^^ DO YOU WANT TO PUT ONE OF THOSE D#$%ED THINGS ON THE END OF ATRAIN FOR!!!!!

I only knew OF the man by way of Amtrak people I knew along the way; Ms. Bly apparently had occasion during her career to know him somewhat more "up close..'

[goodnightjohnwayne]

My one-time boss, the infamous F.S. "Pat" King, was responsible for getting observation cars back on the ends of trains during his tenure as VP Ops at Amtrak. I believe he held the post from about 1974 to 1977. The Broadway during those years carried a flat-end sleeper-obs, the Sunset ran with an ex-CZ dome-obs for most of the 1970s, and so did #5 and #6, I think. King put the tavern-lounge-obs cars back on the end of one of the Florida trains, but by 1980 it was once again running mid-train.

I well remember the ex-Denver Zephyr dome-obs on the St. Louis -- Milwaukee through service prior to the arrival of the Turboliners.

It was a nice era while it lasted. Lots of good equipment, and you were never quite sure where it would show up next. Amtrak's descent into mediocrity since then hasn't been pleasant to watch.

I really would have to question the economic justification for those "Rainbow era" observation cars. As previously stated, an observation car was a real moneymaker on a "name train," but only because of the beverage business. There was so much money is the sale of alchohol that the railroads were more than a little covetous of all that profit going to Pullman, which no doubt influenced the subsequent course of events. Of course, the patronage was different in that era than in the 1970s, and labor costs were far lower in the Pullman era.

It's not hard to see why a mismatched fleet of oddball observation cars didn't make the cut when it came time for HEP conversion. There was plenty of good equipment that got discarded at that time.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Of course Obs were nice - if you were a fan.

I certainly rode my share during my pre-Amtrak train riding days; while I admit bias on this point, the Skytops on my MILW were the 'Omega'.

However, for the rest of the farepayers, an Obs was simply a deterrent to high profit (well, contribution to overhead) beverage sales; roads that acquired Obs quickly realized that beverage sales were maximized when the source of such was placed mid-train. As a result, unsightly diaphragms were fitted to obs of such roads as Seaboard and New Haven; placing these cars mid-train also ruined the streamliner continuity. Some roads, such as the GN, retained their Obs, but had converted their Lounges into revenue space.

In short, I was astounded when Amtrak went on a binge to acquire Obs, including several that had been withdrawn from service well before "The End' (a Wabash Dome Obs comes to mind), and assigning same to the likes of Milw-StL trains such as the Abraham Lincoln (yes youngsters, Corridor trains had names back then). But the initiative was quite analogous to the duration of humanity on this "big rock" we inhabit.

[R Paul Carey]

As to the obs. on the Abraham Lincoln, I can share the following:

In early 1975, the decision was made to withdraw the RTG turboliners from the St. Louis service and restore "conventional" steam heated equipment until Amfleet equipment would become available. With some concern as to being seen as "downgrading" the service, extra effort was made to capture and maintain (at St. Louis) the "best" available refurbished equipment for the "new" train (The Abraham Lincoln).

At the time, I was Amtrak's District Manager, Operations and Maintenance at St. Louis. I knew F.S. "Pat" King and will simply say that, if you attended to all the requirements of the job - including the "small" stuff - he'd lend you his support. I can remember many times in the early days watching him observe newly matched consists of refurbished cars depart; at the time, this was something to behold, as it had been well over 10 to 15 years since the eastern railroads (he was from the PC and PRR) had reason to undertake such work on their own equipment. He always liked to see a sharp-looking matched consist, and - on those trains - he liked the use of the obs cars EXCEPT as their "prime" seats tended to be used by Track Supervisors on passes riding their territory...

The Abe that we ran was a true "pocket streamliner", with Budd-built ex-L&N 58 seat coaches, ex-SP Diner Lounges, and at first the ex GN "Port of Seattle" then later, the ex Q DZ Dome lounge obs that Randy recalls. We even borrowed a GM&O drumhead from one of our mechanics, copied it, and carried Abe's silhouette in the "proper" place... This equipment was kept spotless and we made certain the dome windows were washed (ladder brigade with fountain brushes) every layover at St. Louis. The train exemplified the "clean window" philosophy notwithstanding the unavoidably questionable economics.

Footnote: We tried, but were unable to find suitable power to cycle at St. Louis (for maintenance), so pooled power from Chicago was used. Sometimes they were short, and for other reasons, we would have to "punt" at St. Louis. We asked for a set, to clean up for the inaugural run, but all that was available was a single E-9A, insufficient to make schedule (with press and others aboard). At the time we had a graveyard of E and F units at St. Louis, veterans of a grandiose ill-advised plan to steam heat the Terminal, and all awaiting trade-in to Pielet Brothers. The "best" of the bunch was # 465, an ex UP E-9B. We cut it in and, after blowing a lot of carbon on Alton Hill, she cleared up fine, and then continued to run in the pool for several years.

News of this "resurrection" was NOT well received, however, when the report of an A-B locomotive consist was received in Washington - but all the static cleared when "Pat" said it was OK....

[jhdeasy]

Amtrak (former SAL/SCL) round end tavern lounge observation cars 3341, 3342 and 3345 were assigned to Amtrak's Empire State Express (New York - Buffalo) for less than a year circa 1974. I enjoyed several rides along the Water Level Route in those cars ... a snowy winter trip is particularly memorable. The bar in the obs car was usually not staffed by an attendent; you had to walk up to the 3900 series snack bar coach (a 50 seat x-NYC snack bar coach) for a snack or a beverage. One reason they were assigned to that train was the current ICC regulations (Ex Parte 277?) that required non-revenue lounge space on trains traveling more than a certain number of hours and/or miles. After these three cars disappeared from Empire Service, Iasked Amtrak's Manager of Empire Service (Mr. Dan Human?) at 466 Lexington Avenue in NY abouth their status; he said Amtrak headquarters had reassigned them, with a planned use as a children's recreation car on one of the New York - Miami trains. I don't think they were ever used in that planned role, but we never saw them again along the Water Level Route.

During the Amtrak retired/surplus equipment sales of the 1980s and 1990s, observation cars of any design (round end or blunt end, dome or non-dome) were a popular commodity. Their utility as a PV was diminished in the era when Amtrak operated box cars and roadrailers behind the observation car, but now they once again provide their owners and passengers a unique view of the railroad.

[D.Carleton]

My apologizes for straying off-topic and if the mods think it worth a new thread then sobeit, however:

News of this "resurrection" was NOT well received, however, when the report of an A-B locomotive consist was received in Washington -

Why the animosity of an 'A-B' lash-up?

[R Paul Carey]

Unlike the "typical" back-to-back A-A consist, this A-B set had to be turned, an "inconvenience" (more or less) at the terminal.

[LI Loco]

As a student at Syracuse University in the early 70s, I had seen ex-Seaboard obs cars frequently attached to the rear of one of the Empire Service trains - usually the first train out of GCT in the morning and and last returning train in the afternoon. This consist also included a baggage car, making it a snazzy little streamliner.

I later had two experiences riding Amtrak obs cars; first between NYP and Petersburg, VA, on the Champion in 1975 (a lot of fun on the NEC), and an ex-CZ dome-obs on the Sunset Limited between Houston and New Orleans in 1978. Here is a link to a photo of the CZ-car taken in Beaumont, TX during the station stop: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 094&nseq=1

IMHO, obs cars added visual appeal to the top trains in the heyday of rail travel, but the investment could only be justified if the route offering exceptional scenery and there was enough business for separate first-class and coach lounge sections. Otherwise, railroads would have to incur the additional overhead plus the expense of turning them at their destinations, in most cases. While most roads used obs-lounge cars exclusively for first-class trains, on the NY-Florida and Chicago-Florida streamliners most obs cars were open to coach passengers due to the fact that these trains were originally all-coach.

[D.Carleton]

Unlike the "typical" back-to-back A-A consist, this A-B set had to be turned, an "inconvenience" (more or less) at the terminal.

Interesting. Considering the whole consist is usually turned at either terminal it’s surprising this would be deemed an “inconvenience”.

[R Paul Carey]

To clarify, train consists were usually switched separately without motive power attached at terminals where locomotive fueling or servicing was scheduled; furthermore, and typically, turn cycles for motive power vs. cars involved different layovers and connections, this was true at Chicago where motive power was "pooled".