Amtrak Downeaster Discussion Thread

[jlichyen]

New Haven would probably work better operationally for that option, however either choice affects the Connecticut draw bridge slots.

It's worth noting the benefits to the west Boston suburbs of a train running west out of Boston and then south from Worcester towards New London (and not Providence).

Framingham gets some significant improvements in connectivity that at present are unavailable to them as a direct service.

Regarding the Conn River Bridge: Not necessarily. If the cross-platform transfer occurs at New London, it just has to be timed with existing NE Regionals and/or SLEs so no new trains are crossing the Conn River. New trains from NL will impact the Thames River Bridge, but if they're timed for just before/after the regionals pass, it might be doable.

One minor issue with this routing is that it involves crossing the sub base in Groton, and is on the opposite side of the Thames from Mohegan Sun. I don't know if those are serious or not, though.

I also don't know if there's any value in radial commuting between Worcester and Lowell/Lawrence? Basically a parallel to I-495. I haven't been on that highway in forever so I'm not familiar with rush hour traffic. But if there's additional demand for that kind of regular service, an upgrade to 65+ might be sellable.

[gokeefe]

An upgrade on Worcester - Ayer is $50 million plus. Worcester - Grand Junction is $0. Obviously Grand Junction has its own issues but that's where the dollars start. New London - Worcester almost certainly has its own problems but the point remains that Worcester to Boston is a very cheap proposition.

[Jeff Smith]

IIRC, the PW from New London to Worcester was recently upgraded to 286k. Still, I'm sure it will need upgrades for passenger traffic.

[Hux]

I also don't know if there's any value in radial commuting between Worcester and Lowell/Lawrence? Basically a parallel to I-495. I haven't been on that highway in forever so I'm not familiar with rush hour traffic. But if there's additional demand for that kind of regular service, an upgrade to 65+ might be sellable.

I495 is a mess, as is Rt. 128/I95. Traffic capacity is maxed out at rush hour, late morning, early afternoon, and holiday weekends. The ubiquitous "construction projects" mouse things up and it often takes Waze and some well placed roads to get anywhere to the northeast of Worcester in a timely manner.

[gokeefe]

That's a near perfect case statement for new commuter rail service ... And it also goes to show that Massachusetts is very unusual in that virtually all of their Amtrak service has an overlapping commuter rail service as well.

Something to consider as the future unfolds in Maine ...

[TomNelligan]

I495 is a mess, as is Rt. 128/I95. Traffic capacity is maxed out at rush hour, late morning, early afternoon, and holiday weekends. The ubiquitous "construction projects" mouse things up and it often takes Waze and some well placed roads to get anywhere to the northeast of Worcester in a timely manner.

But the practical problem is that most jobs along those roads are in suburban commercial developments and office parks that are not easily served by any form of mass transit, not downtown near rail stations. On both 128 and 495 the bulk of the commuter traffic is suburban home to suburban office on diffuse routes. I'm most familiar with the upper end of 128 from roughly Waltham to Reading that is basically lined with offices that even a bus service that stopped at all exits wouldn't serve efficiently enough to get many people out of their cars. The recent Boston Globe series on the region's terrible traffic discussed this problem in detail.

[charlesriverbranch]

IIRC, the PW from New London to Worcester was recently upgraded to 286k. Still, I'm sure it will need upgrades for passenger traffic.

I've ridden on it, on the P&W's excursion train. The track is in great shape, but it's a single track route with no passing sidings that I remember, and I don't recall seeing any signals either. I'm not sure that would rule out a once-a-day service like the old State of Maine Express, especially if it's timed to go through at hours of the day when there's no freight traffic.

[Ridgefielder]

But the practical problem is that most jobs along those roads are in suburban commercial developments and office parks that are not easily served by any form of mass transit, not downtown near rail stations. On both 128 and 495 the bulk of the commuter traffic is suburban home to suburban office on diffuse routes. I'm most familiar with the upper end of 128 from roughly Waltham to Reading that is basically lined with offices that even a bus service that stopped at all exits wouldn't serve efficiently enough to get many people out of their cars. The recent Boston Globe series on the region's terrible traffic discussed this problem in detail.

Can't speak to the Boston area, but I know plenty of the big suburban office park employers in the Stamford/Greenwich/Rye area run shuttle van services to meet the New Haven Line trains. Don't see why a similar dynamic couldn't materialize in Mass. That's getting tangential to the Downeaster discussion though.

Back on topic-- I think we can all agree that there are three possible ways to run a future through service between NY and Maine: 1) via a yet-to-be-built N-S rail link across Boston; 2) via the Grand Junction branch through Cambridge; 3) via the old NH/B&M route through Worcester, Ayer and Lowell.

Option 1 has probably a $10+ billion price tag and wouldn't be done until at least 2030 even construction got underway in the next 30 minutes. That leaves us with Option 2 or Option 3.

So, which is operationally superior? Worcester or the Grand Junction? Would the cost of upgrading the Worcester Main be offset by the gain in overall efficiency and speed (since I think a train heading into BOS on the NEC would have to make at least 3 reverse moves to wind up heading north on the B&M Western Division)?

[Rockingham Racer]

Using the Grand Junction routing will require turning the train near the Boston Engine Terminal. A clumsy, time consuming move at best. Then, it's a backup move down to North Station so that the train is facing in the correct direction upon leaving for Maine.

[ryanch]

IIRC, the PW from New London to Worcester was recently upgraded to 286k. Still, I'm sure it will need upgrades for passenger traffic.

What does 286k mean in this context? 286,000? If so, 286,000 what?

Thanks.

[Arlington]

286,000 lbs of Gross Vehicle Weight (per railcar)
viewtopic.php?f=136&t=60864 (picture it as 100 tons of cargo in a 30 ton railcar)

To support such heavy loads often requires upgrades to Bridges and culverts beneath, restabilized ballast, fresher ties and heavier rails.

Higher passenger speeds (higher FRA Track Classes) usually requires similar upgrades, but is often focused more on fresher ties and rails, to manage lateral forces, and not so much on bearing heavy weight up/down.

See also:
http://www.panamrailways.com/286k-bridge

[ryanch]

Thanks!

[gokeefe]

So, which is operationally superior? Worcester or the Grand Junction? Would the cost of upgrading the Worcester Main be offset by the gain in overall efficiency and speed (since I think a train heading into BOS on the NEC would have to make at least 3 reverse moves to wind up heading north on the B&M Western Division)?

I think assuming a move via Grand Junction implies going to the NEC is not necessary. If you head west and run WOR-NLC it is far more sensible. In my opinion that's the real alternative that Grand Junction presents.

[mtuandrew]

Regardless of improvements, trains might literally be limited to walking speed on the Grand Junction through Cambridge depending on how strong a fight that town puts up with the MBTA and the state - and it’s guaranteed to be a strong fight. Something to keep in mind anyway. Also worth suggesting that any NYP-BON-POR train reverses ends at BON.

[east point]

There may be a simple solution. If the train just has a loco added to both ends a New Haven when it arrives at BON the reversing problem is solved. As well the higher speeds available NHV <> Springfield can use the extra loco. Any improvements made north of Springfield can be used to go at higher speeds and accelerate faster.