Amtrak Auto Train Discussion

[electricron]

Agreed. Don't start at Chicago. Really, don't start within 3 hours of it*
New Yorkers drive 4 hours to get to the LOR terminal.

How close to Florida can I get from Fort Wayne Indiana?

*except for CONO Auto Train, which I propose for Kankakee

Kankakee, Is is 57 rail miles south of Chicago, adding 57 rail miles south of McComb, MS gets you to Hammond, LA - around 53 rail miles north of New Orleans. At least it could work with time and distance, and additionally with the single host railroad requirement someone else suggested.

The problem with the Ft. Wayne to Florida route is the lack of an existing Amtrak train servicing it. Without an specific rail route, it is difficult to state how far a train could go in 850 rail miles. Using highways and assuming a routing toward Orlando, 850 highway miles will get you to Valdosta, GA. Orlando is 1076 highway miles, so 1076 - 850 = 226. So 226 miles north of Orlando on I-75 places you near Valdosta, GA. Remember, that is a highway route, not a railroad route. 226 miles north of Orlando puts you 3 hours or so away. It would be too far north to be an acceptable drive to reach south Florida or the Gold Coast.

A better choice for an originating train for Auto Trains heading west from Chicago would be Galesburg, which could service both the Zephyr and Chief routes. Galesburg is 162 rail miles west of Chicago, 850 miles west of Galesburg would get you to:
Zephyr 26 miles northeast of Denver, CO.
Chief 19 miles southwest of La Junta, CO.
I’m not sure either would make an acceptable Auto Train, but that is where these trains could reach from Galesburg.

[mtuandrew]

I think we need to play around with a two-night route, specifically the Midwest to California. The suggested 2/week frequency would work, like dep Wed/Sat arr Fri/Mon. That gives you one extra midweek day for maintenance on either the midwest or the Cali end.

Amtrak would need its own facilities in either place unfortunately, unless there’s a way to time-share a yard, and that has a high capital cost amortized over only two trains per direction weekly. Preferably it would be near an existing base of operations, so as not to duplicate engine and car facilities too much, and on an existing route to keep qualifications to a minimum.

Amtrak should really just lease freight power for future Auto Trains. Can you imagine the fits railfans would have, seeing a blue warbonnet GP60M or B40-8W on point of an Amtrak train? It would of course need HEP from a Genesis, a P32-8BWH or an NPCU so equipped.

[Arlington]

I would like to offer IL-CO-AZ as a two day option on two one-day trains.

[Gilbert B Norman]

I note with interest how this subject arises again
..and again. Here is what I wrote during '08 and again on likely about ten different occasions:

https://railroad.net/viewtopic.php?f=46 ... 46#p487046

Nothing during the intervening years has occurred to change my views of "overnight is enough", "'arewethereyetitis' becomes quite endemic at about Noon",
and "they're not railfans, not even train lovers".

All here know bureaucracies don't "think out of the box"; they administer programs arising from enacted legislation and they know how to point fingers and otherwise cover the hind quarters.

Let's accept "we got what we got", and even my "Auto Train Service" thoughts are likely too far out of the box.

[Jeff Smith]

Valdosta' is not such a bad location, it's right on I-75 and has the Florida Turnpike branching off to Orlando, and 75 continues down the Gulf Coast to Tampa and other warm water destinations. 75 on that stretch can be rough, especially around Gainesville, but it's not as bad as I-4 from Orlando in any direction. I could live with it, although with an existing facility down the road...

Cross-Country needs to be a two day trip; ski country isn't a bad long term destination I suppose (remember, you're looking at longer duration trips, right?).

Not sure NO is a longer term destination.

[gokeefe]

George, I'd say that's a "nice to have" but not mandatory. It would also be difficult. I like your route out of NJ and PA, though, over some Conrail/legacy roads (LV, Reading, etc.) that gets you somewhere in the Southeast in the allotted distance and time.

For the sake of discussion here I agree. In reality Auto Train is slotted as a high priority freight train. In order to hold a priority slot it doesn't seem realistic to have more than one railroad involved. My $0.02 ...

The question with regards to terminals with multiple outbound options is interesting but in this case it could also lead to intransigence on the part of host railroads. Why would they want the headache if Amtrak is going to drop them whenever it pleases?

[bostontrainguy]

RE: Possible Auto Train Services
Post by Gilbert B Norman » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:27 pm

At another topic MudLake wrote:
The Auto Train concept is one that, for practical purposes, can only be accomplished by rail. Are there opportunities for Amtrak to broaden the scope of Auto Train? Mr. Norman, if you're out there, would you consider a Chicago to East Coast Auto Train as viable and desirable?
Since that topic was to discuss the 20th Century Limited, discussion of Auto Train service there would simply drag that topic "off". In this instance a new topic is warranted, and accordingly I have elected to initiate such.

If it were offered, I'd use a Chi-NY auto-train.

Okay Mr. Norman . . . . I'll go outside the box and make a proposal:

Let's add a couple of auto-carriers onto the Capitol Limited and run it overnight to Washington. Then a couple of passenger cars and the auto-carriers are taken to Lorton and an overnight Chicago to the East Coast Auto Train is born. Then the cars are added to the existing Auto Train and a Chicago to Florida Auto Train is born.

I know there are lot's of things to consider and I don't know it the auto-carriers will even fit through the Capitol Hill Tunnel, but it's fun to dream these ideas up. At least there is no "lack of equipment" issues.

And yes there would be a two night journey from Chicago to Florida but snowbirds would not care and if you left both ends on Friday you would still get plenty of time to visit the Mouse Kingdom and run out of money.

[gokeefe]

All here know bureaucracies don't "think out of the box"; they administer programs arising from enacted legislation and they know how to point fingers and otherwise cover the hind quarters.

Mr. Norman,

Prior to the recent announcement of service enhancements on Auto Train I would have agreed with the above sentiment. Management seemed more or less "par for the course". The current CEO and management seem to be taking a significant risk and doing so on the service that is truly worthy of the effort.

[Greg Moore]

I'm going to suggest a different type of "auto train" a car shuttle like is used in some places in Europe.
This does NOT hit the market Auto train hits, but rather much shorter segments.

Not entirely sure there are good places in the US, but honestly, there are times that if I could simply drive onto a flatbed, park, sleep for 3-4 hours and then get off, and have to avoid the drive, I'd do it.

Obviously you need routes where there's high enough volumes where you can have multiple stops more than an hour or so apart for each (so that passengers can do bio breaks). But it might also whet their appetite for more full-fledged Auto Trains.

Just thought of one area: Just outside of Boston to a point Cape Cod. I know a lot of folks that would pay a hefty fee to avoid the bridges, but still have their cars with them on the Cape.

[justalurker66]

The Southwest Chief route would be "possible" with one Chicago station (Aurora or Naperville area) and possible stations in New Mexico or Arizona and LA. Being financially worth doing is a separate question.

You obviously did not do what I asked, i.e. checking the Southwest Chief's schedule. Remember the limitation for a daily Auto Train operation; 50 mph average speeds over 17 hours causing the 850 rail miles range.
It's 1341 rail miles from Chicago to Albuquerque, almost 500 miles too far. Naperville gets you back just 28 rail miles. To get back the 500 rail miles for the 850 limitation, your train does not start in Chicago, it starts just east of Topeka Kansas, two to three states west of Chicago.

Chances for an acceptable Auto Train operation = zero.

No need to be rude about it.
BTW: Amtrak has been messed up since at least yesterday so their schedules are harder to access. (It doesn't work on Firefox.)

Your "rule" works if one limits the train to two train sets and one day turn and return schedule. But why couldn't an auto train be a two day schedule? The same arbitrary rule that limits the train to 17 hours/750 miles might as well state that the train can only be run between Virginia and Florida.

Following the Southwest Chief schedule one could not do a two train turn even if the train was cut back to Lamar, CO. The EB arrival and WB departure are too close. A three train turn could serve La Junta (12 hours to unload, reload and return to Chicago). Albuquerque would be a four train turn (at least for the auto racks and sleepers/coaches added). One could loop Chicago to Flagstaff with a four train turn (eight hours in Flagstaff to unload and reload).

Ignore the arbitrary 750 miles (especially since it doesn't apply to a Southwest Chief scheduled train). The question would be finding the optimal distance from Chicago for the trip. All three would be workable ... La Junta would open the service up to Colorado bound travelers but may not cut enough off of the trip for people going to Arizona.

BTW: I chose Naperville/Aurora because they are on the west side of Chicago and would avoid some backtracking. People would not need to drive in to the heart of Chicago to catch a ride.

[justalurker66]

I've got the second set of city pairs: Beech Grove and Sanford. Per Google maps (i.e. NOT as the crow flies) 995 miles (vs. 855 on the current AT). I don't know enough about midwest railroads to figure out the route; it could end up longer or be impossible for that matter LOL.

Shades of the FLORIDIAN!

Nevertheless, Beech Grove is 190 miles from Chicago, 288 from Michigan, and could catch a large swath of the Midwest.

Not a bad idea ... but it would be easier to get a passenger train on a track that currently has a train than to create a new Amtrak route. I imagine it would be difficult to resurrect an abandoned by Amtrak route - even if it was a Class 1 freight. The foot in the door helps.

Without looking at a railroad map, Beech Grove is south of the city and Indianapolis is fed by Interstates in six directions (one would be a backtrack from Cincinnati - one would be going northeast to head southeast from Evansville). It would fit the mold of New York people driving four hours to Lorton.

Looking at a railroad map ... welcome to Cincinnati. A ramp at Beech Grove would need a new connection to the Cincinnati route (currently connected in downtown Indy) or a backtrack. The rest of the map from https://www.openrailwaymap.org/

openrail-east.jpg (115.55 KiB) Viewed 1783 times

[gokeefe]

If you're going to try the Southwest Chief route it seems to me like Kansas City to Albuquerque is the way to go. 17 hours by rail, mileage is 904 which seems reasonable enough. Quite a bit of this route would avoid the BNSF Southern Transcon entirely.

[gokeefe]

Newark - Jacksonville Option:

Newark - Hagerstown: 248 miles

Manassas - Atlanta: 601 miles (Thank you Amtrak Crescent timetable)

Total So Far: 849 ... Running out of miles ...

[justalurker66]

If you're going to try the Southwest Chief route it seems to me like Kansas City to Albuquerque is the way to go. 17 hours by rail, mileage is 904 which seems reasonable enough. Quite a bit of this route would avoid the BNSF Southern Transcon entirely.

That would work with a three train rotation (on the Southwest Chief schedule) ... one could also do Kansas City to Flagstaff with three trains.

Kansas City is nearly eight hours via road from Chicago. How about Galesburg? 3 Hrs from Chicago but also fed from Indianapolis via I-74.

[gokeefe]

Newark - Jacksonville Option:

Newark - Hagerstown: 248 miles

Manassas - Atlanta: 601 miles (Thank you Amtrak Crescent timetable)

Total So Far: 849 ... Running out of miles ...

Hagerstown - Riverton (Front Royal, Junction with Piedmont Division): 59.0 ... 908 miles total ...