Amtrak Auto Train Discussion

[gokeefe]

With acknowledgements to "nanaimo73" at another forum:

Newark to Manville, 23 miles, Conrail-Lehigh Valley,

Manville to Phillipsburg, NJ, 42 miles, Conrail-Lehigh Valley,

Phillipsburg to Easton, PA, 1 mile, Conrail-CNJ,

Easton to Allentown, PA, 16 miles, Conrail-LV,

Allentown to Harrisburg, PA, 92 miles, Conrail-Reading,

Harrisburg to Shippensburg, PA, 40 miles, Conrail-Reading,

Shippensburg to Hagerstown, MD, 34 miles, Conrail-PC-PRR ...

Total so far: 248 (feel free to double check) ... Not looking very promising for 850 to Jacksonville ...

I haven't got mileage beyond Hagerstown via Front Royal, Atlanta to Jacksonville yet.

[gokeefe]

With regards to the NEC the safest assumption to make seems to me that either the Silver Star or the Silver Meteor would be converted outright into "Auto Train NY" and terminated somewhere in the Metro area on the NEC.

This alleviates the problems with host railroad objections to a new train and also would allow Amtrak to leverage existing sets of equipment to the maximum extent possible. I don't necessarily have an opinion about which of the "Silvers" to use.

The lowest risk option from an operational standpoint would seem to be using an existing yard or former terminal facility in northern New Jersey that is already connected to the NEC thus avoiding any impact to the Penn Station tunnels. People are already driving to this facility anyways so access by subway isn't important.

This would also have the positive effect of making the service as attractive as possible to north central New Jersey residents.

Somewhere around Edison might work best.

Thoughts, options?

[justalurker66]

You would have to find another super busy interstate route like I-95 that people would be willing to pay “to not drive their car”

-The Indiana, Ohio, and Pennsylvania Turnpikes (I-76, I-80, and/or I-90)

I have won that race a couple of times. 704 miles (Chi to DC union stations), just shy of 11 hours in a car. Add time for rest areas. Still beat the train (17 hours overnight).

An auto train would need to run from ramp to ramp instead of station to station ... where would you put the ramps? One of the benefits of driving being able to start at home and end where you're going - without backtracking. As a passenger train, people east of Chicago can ride the Capitol Limited from three stops in Northern Indiana - two of them are within 100 miles of Chicago, saving a long eastbound trip into the city just to ride west again.

Following the current auto train ramp placements where would you target each ramp? Gary Indiana may be a good place (north end of I-65) to catch traffic east of Chicago before leaving the Chicago Metropolitan area. Porter would be the furthest east I would put the ramp to serve Chicago traffic (close to the interstates and toll road before the NS Chicago Line enters rural areas). How about the DC end? Somewhere near Cumberland or Harpers Ferry?

As a point to point train you would not get all of the intermediate traffic. People buying a ticket from Chicago to Toledo or Toledo to Pittsburgh or Pittsburgh to DC. The intermediate stops such as South Bend and Cleveland help keep the Capitol Limited on the rails. Not only is the auto train serving a niche market (people who want to take their vehicles with them) but it is further limited by having fixed end points. And as discussed, adding and dropping cars (additional ramps along the route) becomes a problem.

If Mr Anderson's Delta Airlines could misroute your luggage to Omaha (or into the black hole where lost luggage goes) I'm sure his railroad would figure out a way of dropping cars destined for Chicago in Toledo or vice versa. Two end points means they don't have to think who's car is going to which destination. Just load and go. Even if they mess up priority unloading, at least your car is at the right ramp.

[Rockingham Racer]

I just flew over the Trenton area on Google Maps. There seems to be space just north of Trenton station for a couple of tracks and a dedicated station. Entry would be from the south off of Monmouth St. Advantage here is it's Amtrak property, so they wouldn't have to negotiate to purchase any.
As to Worcester, MA: I think it's a little too far north. It would be wonderful for Maine, though!

[bostontrainguy]

Here you go . . .

AC2.jpg (102.98 KiB) Viewed 1283 times

So people drive to a few select Amtrak stations along the NEC and their cars are loaded onto a truck auto-carrier in the parking area. Flat cars are placed on the rear of a Silver Train which is extended to Boston and when the train arrives passengers board and the truck is driven onto a flat car. There would be a ramp on the last flatcar that could be lowered onto a paved level pad to allow quick drive-on access.

The procedure is reversed in Florida at a newly opened Sanford Station next to the Auto Train facility where the flatcars are dropped and the trucks rolled off from the front flatcar. Additional stations on the southern end would greatly complicate things so initially there is only one Florida station.

Station possibilities: Route 128, MA - Metropark or Newark Airport, NJ - Lorton, VA

Of course a similar service could be offered on the Chief and enclosed autocarriers would be used.

AUto.jpg (8.23 KiB) Viewed 1274 times

[Rockingham Racer]

Those are Edsels, aren't they? And we all know what happened to those!

[bostontrainguy]

Those are Edsels, aren't they? And we all know what happened to those!

I'm guessing Buicks.

[Jeff Smith]

Forget intermediate stops and the NEC. That's trying to do too much. The NEC is swamped, and you need to bypass DC Union Station anyway, right?

While 95 is a hassle for most if not all of it's length, the worst portion is from about Richmond, VA all throughout the Northeast. The Lorton area is pretty close in to the outer DC suburbs, which I consider to be down around Woodbridge (although VRE goes all the way to both Manassas and Fredericksburg. The traffic really sucks when you start getting to around Old Dominion and Fredericksburg.

It seems that those heading down to Lorton get their early enough to avoid most of the major rush hour, i.e. early afternoon. And I'd expect the catchment area to be fairly wide, but mostly to the north and east of DC. Putting a terminal somewhere in North Jersey would help... like I said, maybe somewhere along the tier.

Another issue: are you cannibalizing demand from Lorton? Is there pent-up demand in the NE?

So the issue then is the turn... you need a second set of equipment, and a slot on a host railroad. Dropping one of the Atlantic Coast Service trains provides some of that equipment, although it's not Superliner equipment but single level on what could be a Superliner route. It could be either Silver, or the Palmetto. The SCL trains, the Meteor or the Palm are the choices as the Star is the sole train on the inland route through Columbia. In any case, dropping an LD on the NEC I think could be both a financial and operational benefit.

Whether or not you drop an LD (and remember this would be an overnight train), you still need new/more auto racks. And you still need to get to Florida, unless you want to locate in someplace like Charleston SC. That allows for a likely more leisurely drive down the rest of 95, with stops perhaps at Hilton Head, Savannah, and so on. Or continue on down to Lorton and have a third set for the turns.

[mtuandrew]

BINGO. I-70, Baltimore to Chicago, with a pre load in NYC to link up. That would also help I-80 traffic.

The real issue is, you have to make the cost decent, and you have to provide the amenities meal stops provide.

How about leasing part of Benning Yard in DC, instead of Bal’mer?

———

We’ve mentioned that CSX is often an indifferent and sometimes hostile Amtrak landlord, but seems to generally treat Auto Train well enough because it plays by freight train rules. For future auto trains, we have to consider that their potential landlords wouldn’t treat them as well and that Amtrak could use alternatives. To that end, I think any future services need to allow for alternate routings. Meaning, a New York-area terminal should be situated on a Conrail Shared Assets or a NJ Transit line; a Chicago-area terminal on Belt Railway of Chicago, Indiana Harbor Belt, or Metra; a Los Angeles terminal on BNSF/UP joint track or o e of the LA area terminal switching roads. It would be really nice to flexibly route trains over NS or CSX, UP or BNSF based on rates and service.

[slchub]

We are down another locomotive account we hit a pick-up truck last night at the Purrysburg Rd crossing, north of Savannah, GA. The 835 had to have the plow removed by CSX using a blow torch as the plow was below the gauge of the rail. Eqpt. issues rule. The motors we do have are tired and barely hanging on. I'm not sure how many of you guys consider all that goes into running the AT from SFA to LOR and back. The schedule that is in place works and I don't believe you'll see this route being extended due to the lack of eqpt and monetary constraints. Myself and others who work this train set have mentioned before that what is in place is what will be.

[gokeefe]

I'm thankful everyone onboard is ok. I do extend my utmost respect to all the operations and maintenance personnel who keep things running without the benefit of sufficient resources.

With regards to expansion I think it's completely true that the current operation must remain "as is" in terms of route structure. The question that seems worth discussing is whether or not there should be another route serving another area with separate terminals from Sanford and Lorton.

There is quite a bit of grant funding being offered regularly by the federal government for new routes, states are supporting services they never have in the past and Amtrak, at last, is growing.

Hope you all stay safe out there.

My vote remains for New Jersey to Jacksonville.

[justalurker66]

Additional stations on the southern end would greatly complicate things so initially there is only one Florida station.

Additional stations on the northern end would complicate the return journey. An error in where your car was loaded means it is going a different place than you! Using flats and piggybacking auto carriers would be like loading a circus train. Not something that is done in short station stops. Dropping and adding loaded rail cars would be the most efficient (although still slow).

Trying to have multiple stops on both ends would be a disaster. Multiple stops on one end would be a mess, but "possible".

Here is a thought ... how about a New Jersey to Lorton Auto Train - separate from the current Lorton-Sanford train?
It would need to be timed early enough to allow for delays north of Lorton (southbound).

The Southwest Chief route would be "possible" with one Chicago station (Aurora or Napperville area) and possible stations in New Mexico or Arizona and LA. Being financially worth doing is a separate question.

[Backshophoss]

Again,There's NO ROOM for an Auto Train service on the BNSF Transconn due to year round steady traffic from UPS,Fed-Ex Ground and
intermodal traffic,there's a small yard in Flagstaff for the Flagstaff local on the east side of town,at the top of the Coconino Grade
from Winslow.
The Auto Rack Facility in ABQ is not an easy switch move crossing the ABO wye back to the passenger station in ABQ,
Herzog has setup shop for NMRX maintenance in the Coach yard and the city of ABQ owns the former ATSF backshop buildings.
BNSF uses all the remaining yard tracks for freight.
The tunnel at Raton may not be large enough for the current crop of enclosed Auto rack cars.

[justalurker66]

Connected to the Southwest Chief the train would be using that train's slots.
No one said it would be easy. I'd be surprised if it were financially viable (although one can say that about many existing trains).

[David Benton]

Connected to the Southwest Chief the train would be using that train's slots.
No one said it would be easy. I'd be surprised if it were financially viable (although one can say that about many existing trains).

I would think after La Junta , they would be better off driving timewise. So a terminal there would be the go. Probably only add a 1/2 hour or so to add racks there.