Illinois Amtrak Service

[njtmnrrbuff]

Any Amtrak changes on the Lincoln Corridor must be approved by Illinois and UP and whoever owns the Metra Heritage Corridor Route. It would be good though if there was a mid to late morning departure from STL-CHI. This would be great for people who live in and around St. Louis who like to sleep late, especially those attending college in Upstate Illinois who don’t want to leave STL super early but at the same time not too late.

[gokeefe]

Spare power and coaches is a more than reasonable solution. They don't have it right now but they probably will in the near future.

[mtuandrew]

Spare power and coaches is a more than reasonable solution. They don't have it right now but they probably will in the near future.

This would be ideal if Amtrak had a power facility in St. Louis, which it doesn’t currently as far as I know. That’s why I suggested a HEP cab car that could pretty much sit there until needed (maybe traded out once weekly for preventative maintenance). A baggage/generator car might be a better option, as it wouldn’t need the more frequent 91 day FRA Locomotive inspections (see 49 CFR § 229.)

The “spare” cars usually come off the southbound at STL and back onto the northbound on the same day. It might be worthwhile to add an additional pair of cars into the mix so there’s always at least two Superliners waiting at STL. That covers both a fault with the Texas Eagle and with any of the Illinois Regionals.

I’d already mentioned rental power in case of emergency. It isn’t ideal, but this is the equivalent of how it’s sometimes imperative to catch a cab when your car isn’t available. Besides, UP (or CN or BNSF) would almost certainly have road power available; you could run this type of stopgap train behind anything capable of at least 60 mph, from an ES44AH to a GP39R.

[electricron]

Spare power and coaches is a more than reasonable solution. They don't have it right now but they probably will in the near future.

Even if Amtrak found spare rolling stock to stage in St. Louis to replace a late Texas Eagle, this other problem arises. No spare crew to man those spare cars and locomotive unless you use the crew to be assigned to the Texas Eagle - which then leaves the Texas Eagle without a crew when it arrives.
It will not be leaving St. Louis until 4 pm, assuming the Missouri River Runner switching into a Linclon Service train arrives on time. The Eagle will now be arriving in Chicago much later than before, not leaving St. Louis hours after it was scheduled to arrive in Chicago.
The idea that Amtrak will keep a crew on standby everyday just in case the Texas Eagle is running late seems like a waste of manpower and financial resources. What would you do with them if the Texas Eagle arrives on time into St. Louis? Pay them to do nothing?

There are two corridor trains leaving St. Louis in the morning before the Texas Eagle is scheduled to arrive. Get up early and use them if you expect being on time that corridor trains provide. The Texas Eagle by the time it reaches St. Louis northbound to Chicago has been in serivce almost 24 hours since leaving San Antonio. It often waits hours before departing San Antonio because through passengers of the Sunset Limited/Texas Eagle that left LA two days earlier. So, at least two cars on the Texas Eagle could have been running for 3 days before arriving in St. Louis, three times a week. I do not ever recommend business travelers to take long distance trains, or anyone expecting them to reach their final destination on time.

[gokeefe]

Calling in an extra crew can be done and of the delay is that long you might as well just deadhead them on the next available southbound. Barring that option buses work great in pinch. Hard to substitute a cruise ship for an airplane ...

[Balerion]

A new platform project is underway in Mattoon.

https://jg-tc.com/news/local/amtrak-pas ... 91a96.html

The current platform just runs alongside the length of the depot building at 1718 Broadway Ave. The new platform will stretch from the depot north to the Richmond Avenue bridge to provide more room for long trains to drop off and pick up passengers without needing to move forward mid-process.

In addition, the new platform will be raised to the height of the bottom step on Amtrak passenger cars. Currently, Amtrak conductors use portable metal step stools to help passengers move between the cars and the low lying platform.

[Tadman]

Calling in an extra crew can be done and of the delay is that long you might as well just deadhead them on the next available southbound. Barring that option buses work great in pinch. Hard to substitute a cruise ship for an airplane ...

I mean if you know the train is 2-4 hours late in Texarkana or Little Rock, I don't think it's that hard to (a) predict it's going to be even later in STL; (b) find a crew in that 12 hour window you have. It's not like the 4 hour late train shows up in Saint Louis and they don't know a crew is needed, it's a very predictable thing from the minute it leaves DFW. Especially if the delays are UP-related, rather than equipment failure. If UP has track work for a stretch, or congestion, you can probably predict for the next week that this is a necessary fix.

[Tadman]

Spare power and coaches is a more than reasonable solution. They don't have it right now but they probably will in the near future.

This would be ideal if Amtrak had a power facility in St. Louis, which it doesn’t currently as far as I know.

Interesting point, I'm curious what kind of power facility is needed. Can you contract this out to UP or Respondek or TRRA? Or just rotate the power out every week or two? There are plenty of outlying points where power spends a night or two but nothing is there - Pontiac and Grand Rapids. I think they keep power in Denver as well (or did at one time) and nothing there for it.

[mtuandrew]

TRRA is a good idea as a “parking lot attendant” for Amtrak.

I think part of the problem is that Amtrak could use a road-switcher more than a road diesel at add/drop locations, especially remote ones. Can’t drill cars as easily with a Gennie as with a GP38! Would be nice for Amtrak to trade in some passenger power (P40s, P42s once replacements come from Siemens, any remaining F40s, F59s that don’t get snapped up) for more HEP-equipped road-switchers. The GP38H-3s can’t have that long left, and there have never been many (enough) P32-8BWHs. In theory, the EMD products could get remanufactured as ECO products too.

[Arborwayfan]

Good point, Tadman: you can often tell when a train will be late a long time before it arrives.

Years ago I left Chicago on the CZ and the crew went dead in about Aurora and we had to wait an hour or two for the new crew. I have always wondered exactly what was going on that they sent us out with a crew with an hour or two left to work. I think there was a big snowstorm and a lot of delays and I guess that was the only crew they had and they figured they'd better get us going even if we had to wait later. But it felt weird at the time that they sent the train out knowing exactly how long hte crew had left to work and didn't have a new crew there to meet us. I have kind of figured that they didn't have another crew available, and I've also wondered if this sort of thing happens often. And how many extra crews Amtrak has available. It can't be that many, especially at crew-change points that just get one pair of trains every day. Can anyone who knows more tell a little about Amtrak's capacity to call extra crews at any given time?

[Tadman]

This is why I never really like the idea of Amtrak providing crew and locomotives. Amtrak has 20,000 employees and 400 locomotives. UP has over double that many employees and 8,000 locomotives. I assume BN is in a similar position.

What value does it add to have your own shops, power, and crews and tie up that capital when the host railroad could provide the same? I bet UP has 500+ people in Saint Louis alone, while Amtrak has maybe 20. You've got a lot more room to wiggle with 500 people.

I also bet UP has 200 locomotives in Saint Louis, while Amtrak might have 2, all spoken for.

Now if there was competitive bid for crews and power in Saint Louis, you'd have a few class 1's plus a few regionals trying their hardest to provide good service and re-up the contract next year. Instead, you have a handful of guys that have zero incentive to get creative or make things work better than the norm.

[electricron]

This is why I never really like the idea of Amtrak providing crew and locomotives. Amtrak has 20,000 employees and 400 locomotives. UP has over double that many employees and 8,000 locomotives. I assume BN is in a similar position.

What value does it add to have your own shops, power, and crews and tie up that capital when the host railroad could provide the same? I bet UP has 500+ people in Saint Louis alone, while Amtrak has maybe 20. You've got a lot more room to wiggle with 500 people.

I also bet UP has 200 locomotives in Saint Louis, while Amtrak might have 2, all spoken for.

Now if there was competitive bid for crews and power in Saint Louis, you'd have a few class 1's plus a few regionals trying their hardest to provide good service and re-up the contract next year. Instead, you have a handful of guys that have zero incentive to get creative or make things work better than the norm.

Who is going to pay to subsidize the competitive crews, and why are they not doing so already?
UP could chose to participate with a competitive bid, but does UP wish to? Do you really think the UP will allow anyone else but Amtrak run passenger trains over their corridor? It gets messy very quickly when you open it up for competitive bidding.

Maybe that is why Congress invented Amtrak 50 years ago?

[Tadman]

Who is going to pay to subsidize the competitive crews, and why are they not doing so already?

There's already an existing Amtrak subsidy from the feds and some states. Use that one. Nobody has established that outside crews would cost more, and they likely might cost less given that they're not burdened by an entirely separate HR structure. If Amtrak's current HR office costs X, and UP's costs 2X, but UP's is already spread over more than 2x people, you're likely looking at serious reductions in overhead per man hour.

UP could chose to participate with a competitive bid, but does UP wish to?

There is currently no competitive bid, but they do operate the UP commuter lines in Chicago quite well and continue to do so. It's not a foreign concept to UP.

Do you really think the UP will allow anyone else but Amtrak run passenger trains over their corridor?

All class 1's and quite a few shortlines already have trackage rights over UP in various places, why would this be a problem? Further, because that train is legally an Amtrak train, I don't know that UP gets a say in it anyway. Amtrak already has rights to operate a set number of trains over that line each day.

Maybe that is why Congress invented Amtrak 50 years ago?

It is absolutely 100% not why Amtrak was created in any way shape or form.

[bretton88]

Who is going to pay to subsidize the competitive crews, and why are they not doing so already?

There's already an existing Amtrak subsidy from the feds and some states. Use that one. Nobody has established that outside crews would cost more, and they likely might cost less given that they're not burdened by an entirely separate HR structure. If Amtrak's current HR office costs X, and UP's costs 2X, but UP's is already spread over more than 2x people, you're likely looking at serious reductions in overhead per man hour.

UP could chose to participate with a competitive bid, but does UP wish to?

There is currently no competitive bid, but they do operate the UP commuter lines in Chicago quite well and continue to do so. It's not a foreign concept to UP.

Do you really think the UP will allow anyone else but Amtrak run passenger trains over their corridor?

All class 1's and quite a few shortlines already have trackage rights over UP in various places, why would this be a problem? Further, because that train is legally an Amtrak train, I don't know that UP gets a say in it anyway. Amtrak already has rights to operate a set number of trains over that line each day.

Maybe that is why Congress invented Amtrak 50 years ago?

It is absolutely 100% not why Amtrak was created in any way shape or form.

I think the confusion stems from putting entire routes out for bid, versus just crewing. I think 2 problems might arise from having host railroads crew Amtrak trains. First one being, what about a situation like the CZ where they change host RRs at Denver? Would BNSF crew the entire distance or would you have them change at Denver (for that matter and BNSF crew on the UP line probably has the same personel issue that Amtrak would have, since there wouldn't be any nearby crew bases). Secondly which class 1s would be interested? UP might be interested, as they do crew the Metra trains they host, BNSF would possibly be interested too for the same reason, both western Class 1s have show willingness to do this if they're paid. However when we get East its a different story. CSX has been really clear they want out of the passenger operations business, and I have no clue what NS's view would be on crewing Amtrak trains. I just don't think a Short Line is an option for crewing LD trains, I don't think they'd have the scale to make it worthwhile.

[mtuandrew]

One good reason to keep equipment with Amtrak: their equipment is getting more and more specialized. No one at UP knows much about Siemens anything, from prime mover to electronics to SCR emissions to the cab arrangement. It’s not like their car knockers are qualified to work on the new coaches either. They’d have to hire people over from Amtrak and likely from Siemens and create a new operating division.

As for UP operating Metra lines. The gallery car is about as basic a passenger car as one can find in 2019, on par with the Comet/Shoreliner/Horizon/BTC-x. A UP predecessor (CNW) commissioned them and has operated the same design for something like 70 years. Meanwhile, the F40 is a GP40 in disguise, the F59 is a depowered GP60, and all the MP locomotives are essentially Geeps in Speedos. None of the rule books have changed substantially excepting PTC, nor have the operational patterns. It’s more or less been the same for a hundred years and UP could operate it for another hundred years with barely a change - why would they take on something new, at speeds beyond what they usually run, into a terminal they don’t use (CUS - remember that all UP lines go to Ogilvie) with equipment that is light years beyond their own?