Amtrak Projects/Priorities in an Infrastructure Stimilus

[Gilbert B Norman]

7) force UP into compliance for CHI-STL higher-speed rail operation, or purchase it from them at market value.

Mr. Stephens, although I'm sure this "con job" ranks low with what private enterprise has "pulled" on the taxpayers, it hurts me because I own some "smither" of the "perp". Of course, I sure every other company in my portfolio is a "choir boy".

If it was known how much traffic UP intended to operate over the GM&O and that the primary intent of the funding under ARRA09 was to operate "ten a day (passenger trains) @110", and further any use for freight traffic was to be ancilliary (serve on-line industries @ 0-dark-30), that's one thing. But to have an additional through route to the C&EI where trains would be dispatched without apparent restriction, then the line should have been double tracked (just as it was until '69) and with UP participating in the cost of such.

The existing operating practices of "holing" a "high speed" passenger train, and worse - even with only "five a day"- pull in behind, meet, back up, then run around, is just saying "booey, what you going to do about it" to the taxpayers who signed up and dug in for HSR.

disclaimer: author long UNP

[Tadman]

7) force UP into compliance for CHI-STL higher-speed rail operation, or purchase it from them at market value.

Mr. Stephens, although I'm sure this "con job" ranks low with what private enterprise has "pulled" on the taxpayers, it hurts me because I own some "smither" of the "perp". Of course, I sure every other company in my portfolio is a "choir boy".

Although this route is a sore disappointment in terms of just about everything, I'm hesitant to just up and point the finger at bad ol UP for 100% blame. Consider this: Illinois is a highly corrupt state known for screwing up anything they touch and having more politicians on the wrong end of the justice system. Amtrak has had their own foibles, demonstrating a knack for screwing up just about any rolling stock order.

High speed rail is a project where you can either do it right or not do it at all. Further, the basics of math and averages tell us that running 110mph isn't worth squat when the terminals, interlockings, city/street areas etc.. are all slow as heck.

What we really need to do is learn from the mistake here. Things like
- writing a blank check to a class I will not make it all better
- building out some 110mph trackage will not make running times faster
- work on slow areas first
- relying on a long distance train from LA for corridor service (and including two handoffs, to and from TRE/UP) is a bad idea
- basic state of good repair is very necessary and not exactly present
- shoddy procedures and inconsistent practices in both terminals hurts passenger count


If any of this stimulus money gets to Amtrak, I'm all for:
- acquiring 79mph rolling stock that is very easy to maintain and bullet proof
- making terminal and other slow area improvements
- exploring new starts for corridor-regional routes
- working on projects where the state can match
- consider it a 0% interest loan (maybe X% forgiveable) so there is a bit of skin in the game

[mtuandrew]

7) force UP into compliance for CHI-STL higher-speed rail operation, or purchase it from them at market value.

Mr. Stephens, although I'm sure this "con job" ranks low with what private enterprise has "pulled" on the taxpayers, it hurts me because I own some "smither" of the "perp". Of course, I sure every other company in my portfolio is a "choir boy".

Although this route is a sore disappointment in terms of just about everything, I'm hesitant to just up and point the finger at bad ol UP for 100% blame. Consider this: Illinois is a highly corrupt state known for screwing up anything they touch and having more politicians on the wrong end of the justice system. Amtrak has had their own foibles, demonstrating a knack for screwing up just about any rolling stock order.

0) for all proposals, conduct a thorough cost-benefit analysis and appoint a neutral inspector-general with wide discretion to approve or deny contracts and change orders. As for UP, you can’t force them into compliance without first bringing your own house into order *clears throat Illinois mhmm*

[David Benton]

I am curious as to what Illinois state did wrong on this project?

[Tadman]

This goes into detail here: https://www.idothsr.org/about/funding.aspx

But the route is funded at least partially by Illinois and a lot of the last ten years of improvements were federal grants to Illinois, which then managed the process after that including route selection and idea/concept. Although the feds approved of the concept, they didn't get to hands-on for execution.

[David Benton]

Yes , that tells us what they did , but what did they do wrong?
Seems to me any serious attempt at oversight of UP would have had you guys screaming about the unconstitutional "taking".
Does seem to me the Virginia approach is better, buy the track. but that would not be a direct stimulus to the economy, which is the primary aim of a stimilus ( not sure which is the American spelling) bill.

[njtmnrrbuff]

NY State should be taking some lessons on what Virginia is doing with the future for passenger rail. I think west of ALB, NY State should just buy the Empire Corridor and add more track capacity in major choke point areas like between just west of Schenectady and Hoffmans where there is still single track which probably slows down the trains. Looking at a map, there are many portions of the CSX Water Level Route that are straight for a very long time. It would be nice to see Amtrak trains go even faster than what they do west of Schenectady. That and expanding track capacity at major chokepoints like where I mentioned-the travel times for those passengers heading to cities west of Albany from Downstate would probably come down a lot. That would also open up doors to more frequent train service west of Albany.

[eolesen]

Stimulus has to be shovel or wrench ready.

Gateway can be fast tracked. Yes, it's been planned to death, and since the NYC region was ground zero, it will get an inordinate amount of focus in Round 4.

Replacement equipment would be the second priority, since it puts people to work in manufacturing.

Everything else mentioned.... sounds great with a blank check, but most of the ideas have little grounding in reality.

[njtmnrrbuff]

Many of the future projects or ideas are not only determined by Amtrak, but the individual states, as well as probably other rail landlords. Gateway project as well as the replacement of the B&P tunnels is extremely important on the NEC. Under Gateway, it's very important that the existing North River Tunnels get rehabilitated now. Portal Bridge should be getting worked on as well. Gateway will not only help Amtrak, but it will help NJT. I believe that NJT seems to run more trains into and out of NYP than Amtrak does. Amtrak could increase its frequencies-I know that there is a proposal to run an Acela train every 30 minutes between NYP-WAS depending on the time and day. Having Gateway wouldn't just help the NEC-it would help feeder of the NEC state sponsored corridor routes including DC-Richmond and PHL to PGH.

As for the B&P Tunnels-that's a must. The current approach to Baltimore Penn Station from the south is very slow with those couple of tunnels. They are double track when they probably should be four tracks. In fact, it would be great when the NEC is four tracks between BAL-DC. This will not only help Amtrak trains. It will also help MARC-not just during rush hours but on weekends too. MARC should be running at least once an hour on weekends-not on its current inconsistent schedule. It would also be nice if MARC extended its service hour late at night on the Penn Line.

[Jeff Smith]

Re: "Shovel Ready", a term which was met with derision in the 2009 stimulus. Design/build method can be used for rapid start/completion. Which brings me to the environmental review process. Will review be fast-tracked or waived as part of any stimulus?

I like the CHI ideas floated, i.e. CHI-DET and CHI west to MILW and MSP. I'm not really a Midwest/Cali buff, but as I may have noted, improving those LD East/West routes would be useful. Mostly, outside of the Northeast/Atlantic Coast I think increased frequencies would help on corridor services.

Are some ideas realistic or not? That's in the eye of the beholder. We're not going to electrify the national network by any means, nor do I think we should double-stack the NYP tunnels, etc.

[Tadman]

Yes , that tells us what they did , but what did they do wrong?
Seems to me any serious attempt at oversight of UP would have had you guys screaming about the unconstitutional "taking".
Does seem to me the Virginia approach is better, buy the track. but that would not be a direct stimulus to the economy, which is the primary aim of a stimilus ( not sure which is the American spelling) bill.

How would this be a taking? Gov't gives UP money for improvements. UP willingly takes money. Gov't does not adequately structure a contract or oversight. Because of that, UP does what they want with the money. It's not a taking as the gov't gave the UP money, which UP willingly took, and they made an improvement.

Let's put it this way - you want to rent your neighbor's barn, but you require some additions. He asks $500/month plus $1000 construction costs. You give him $1000 up front and walk away for a month. You come back and he's built a very cool disco floor with a great CD player. You had intended on using the barn as a cow milking area. There's no taking here, just stupidity.

A taking in either scenario would be something like the gov't shows up and tells you to keep six army jeeps in your barn for free or half market rate. Or gov't tells UP to move nuclear waste to a DOE site for half price or no price.

In Illinois (and Chicago), the politicians are a "machine". Getting re-elected and controlling things is far more valuable than actual public good. The politicians love photo opportunity. They also have an extremely high incarceration rate for corruption.

What did they do wrong? They're trying to blame it on delays related to Nippon-Sharyo's problems, but we all know that isn't true as the current rolling stock can do 100mph. There's also a lot of talk about PTC testing problems. PTC is stupid and the numbers prove it. We've seen PTC problems hobble >79 on the Detroit line as well. Other than that, nobody really seems to know. It's that great black hole of Amtrak problems. I can't wait to see what is in store for the 2020's, we're looking at some great failures.

[STrRedWolf]

As for the B&P Tunnels-that's a must. The current approach to Baltimore Penn Station from the south is very slow with those couple of tunnels. They are double track when they probably should be four tracks. In fact, it would be great when the NEC is four tracks between BAL-DC. This will not only help Amtrak trains. It will also help MARC-not just during rush hours but on weekends too. MARC should be running at least once an hour on weekends-not on its current inconsistent schedule. It would also be nice if MARC extended its service hour late at night on the Penn Line.

30 MPH. Replacing it will bump the speeds through it to 70 mph, and shuffle the traffic so local trains all go on tracks 4 and 5 in the station, saving switching time with CHARLES.

And agreed with four tracking WAS to BAL. I've been banging on it all this time, because there's too much benefit having dedicated express and local track with a load like on the NEC. That'll take some reconfiguration of stations, some tunnel or bridging around WAS, and a lot of cash.

[David Benton]

What did they do wrong? They're trying to blame it on delays related to Nippon-Sharyo's problems, but we all know that isn't true as the current rolling stock can do 100mph. There's also a lot of talk about PTC testing problems. PTC is stupid and the numbers prove it. We've seen PTC problems hobble >79 on the Detroit line as well. Other than that, nobody really seems to know. It's that great black hole of Amtrak problems. I can't wait to see what is in store for the 2020's, we're looking at some great failures.

PTC is run by UP , not Amtrak or Illinois state, right?.Nippon Sharyo's problem was multi state , and not the states fault, though i still think it ties to the RFP requirements been unrealistic .
Been guilty of corruption elsewhere doesn't prove your guilty of corruption in a specific case as I'm sure you know .

[Jeff Smith]

PTC isn't stupid, it's a matter of GiGo. Garbage in, garbage out. It's the programming.

[rcthompson04]

Re: "Shovel Ready", a term which was met with derision in the 2009 stimulus. Design/build method can be used for rapid start/completion. Which brings me to the environmental review process. Will review be fast-tracked or waived as part of any stimulus?

I think the EIS requirements need to be relaxed. It was a big drawback to the 2009 stimulus was how several projects languished due to environmental issues.

That is why I think any stimulus bill that wants to hit the ground running needs to focus what is already in the design or approved waiting for money phases.