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  • FDNY regulation of Amtrak

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1538076  by bostontrainguy
 
I think the answer is actually battery powered locomotives. I originally thought this idea was crazy but there is a prototype unit already out there running and it's probably a no-brainer for operations through New York.
 #1538079  by ThirdRail7
 
bostontrainguy wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:38 am I think the answer is actually battery powered locomotives. ...<snip> it's probably a no-brainer for operations through New York.
If you're talking about the BNSF prototype, it hasn't undergone long-distance testing. Remember, the same locomotive you're thinking about operating through New York is the same locomotive that needs to be able to haul a passenger train from EMY-CHI and back, if necessary.
 #1538081  by bostontrainguy
 
ThirdRail7 wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:46 am
bostontrainguy wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:38 am I think the answer is actually battery powered locomotives. ...<snip> it's probably a no-brainer for operations through New York.
If you're talking about the BNSF prototype, it hasn't undergone long-distance testing. Remember, the same locomotive you're thinking about operating through New York is the same locomotive that needs to be able to haul a passenger train from EMY-CHI and back, if necessary.
No it doesn't. How many FL9s and ALP-45DPs have worked Donner Pass?
 #1538082  by JamesRR
 
NJT regularly brings dual-modes into Penn, the ALP-45DP. I don't know if these have any special tanks, but we've had them occasionally even on my NEC trains.
 #1538085  by DutchRailnut
 
one company that made battery operated locomotives believe it was called Rail power is belly up its remains still part of RJ Corman, not sure if any have been sold since.
the battery option is really not good for tunnel operations due to either battery gas or due to explosions of lithium type batteries.
 #1538087  by Tadman
 
Regarding the NYFD regulation of Amtrak versus the pollution regulation of airliners: This is often falling under constitutional law, which is the most nuanced and long-winded discussion ever. I didn't get the best grades in that class to say the least. It's a specialty for very bright people.

Essentially constitutional law is the law of laws. Part of that is the process of making and applying laws, and a subset of that is figuring out which jurisdiction laws apply - federal, state, or local, and who prevails. As an oversimplification, what ever is not specifically reserved for the feds is fair game for state/local.

Because of that, a local jurisdiction can have harder laws than a bigger jurisdiction. A famous example is that of OSHA. There is federal OSHA setting safety rules, but then certain states are well known for more restrictive safety rules - Michigan, California, Washington are the three most famous.

You also have air pollution rules, and California is know for having more restrictive car emission standards. For decades automakers made special models for California that were essentially the same thing, but the timing was dialed back a bit and the cats were more restrictive, the thinking being that less power and more filter produced less emissions and used less gas.

In the case of regulating the Park Avenue tunnel, it appears the regulations are more restrictive safety standards that probably have a lot of merit. Park Avenue tunnel has seen accidents and fires. The steamers that started it all, and then the Jets and FL9's that did indeed catch fire.

Where local over-regulation crosses the line is when it restricts interstate commerce, because the commerce clause of the US constitution specifically reserves the ability for the feds to regulate interstate commerce.

The best example I can think of is when Arizona mandated five-man crews after SP went down to two or three man. Freights would have to stop just inside Arizona, pick up flagmen, then drop them off on the other end of the state. SP sued the state saying that restricts interstate commerce, and that the state could not do that. SP won.

Comparing that to our NYC tunnel issue, they would probably have to prove that special fuel tanks or escape hatches somehow restrict commerce, and that said commerce is interstate. Amtrak has maintained roughly the same schedule as New York Central (or increased it) circa 1967, so it's hard to make a case for interference. Also, very few diesel or dual mode trains originating at NYP leave the state, so it's not interstate anyway.

In the end, it's a moot point anyway. Most of the diesel or dual mode trains leaving NYP and going through tunnels are demanded by and funded by New York State anyway.
 #1538100  by mtuandrew
 
Tadman wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:37 am In the end, it's a moot point anyway. Most of the diesel or dual mode trains leaving NYP and going through tunnels are demanded by and funded by New York State anyway.
Exactly. Power of the purse is how the Feds have instituted national speed limits and blood-alcohol limits, not direct power. If Amtrak got uppity and decided it was ok to run diesels through NYP on a regular schedule (not just once in a while), New York City could withdraw use permits and the resulting revenue from station shops - it would be hard to argue that they’re essential to Amtrak business - and use its influence on the MTA to try to reduce LIRR’s operating payments. Through the MTA it could also have the subway stations at Penn Station closed as health hazards, and push to restrict Amtrak movements on the MNRR Shore Line and Hudson Line.
 #1538101  by Tadman
 
It might even be simpler than that. If the state or city is not comfortable with the railroad running certain equipment in the tunnels, the railroad can ask the state/city to provide better equipment. Chances are the train is a state-mandated/supported Empire train anyway, which the state pays for.
 #1538108  by shlustig
 
C.1970 before any of the FL-9's were rebuilt, we were allowed to have outbound trains from GCT make the start off the block on electric and then switch to diesel if the electric was not sufficient power to get out of the Terminal and up the grade in the Park Ave. Tunnel.

Inbound trains tested the electric on the Park Ave. Viaduct and would use diesel into the Tunnel to the top of the grade and then coast to Tower U. If the electric was NG, it was diesel to the block.

When Harlem Line RDC's were towed by MU's, the engines were left on idle.

There were rare occasions when a train was given relief power (usually the ALCO RS of the White Plains Switcher) far enough out of the Terminal that an S-motor or other power would pick up that train at MO. Otherwise, the RS came into GCT and was shut down at the block.

The NYFD was extremely leery of having to enter the PAT largely because of the 2 fires involving the NH Jets, both of which occurred after the incident in which a fireman was killed when he fouled a live track while in the Tunnel.

The railroad's Metropolitan Region had a Fire Marshall -- Henry Sikorski -- who was former NYFD.
 #1538127  by gokeefe
 
Tadman wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:37 amComparing that to our NYC tunnel issue, they would probably have to prove that special fuel tanks or escape hatches somehow restrict commerce, and that said commerce is interstate.
I would imagine the standard is higher than merely "restrict" but perhaps "unduly burdensome". That being said you have the JD and not me. :wink:
 #1538130  by Tadman
 
It's something like that and I was doing the wikipedia version. Like I said, my Con Law grades were not putting me in Sandra Day territory. I was the social chairman...
 #1538133  by DutchRailnut
 
so how is that relevant to NY FD ?
 #1538139  by SRich
 
JamesRR wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:55 am NJT regularly brings dual-modes into Penn, the ALP-45DP. I don't know if these have any special tanks, but we've had them occasionally even on my NEC trains.
ALP45DP can run on electricity from wires overhead. No need to run the combustion engine.
 #1538140  by BandA
 
So, FDNY can regulate the fuel tank of a duel-mode locomotive. But if Amtrak wanted to attach 10 regular diesels (not running, not powered) with full fuel tanks, the FDNY could or could not prevent that? If Amtrak wanted to run unit oil trains (or LPG) through the tunnels & Penn Station, isn't that federally preempted?