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  • “Experiential” Regional Trains

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1534133  by mtuandrew
 
Anderson has stated he wants some of the most scenic long-distance trains to have “experiential” upsell options, like better food & drink, better individualized service, and better lounge space for first-class passengers. What about Regionals like the Adirondack, Vermonter, Pennsylvanian, and some sections of the Surfliner, Empire Service, Cascades and even the NYC-BOS Northeast Regionals? jp1822 made me think of this in the Cuomo HSR thread with the below post:
jp1822 wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:03 pm I am onboard the Adirondack train at least once a quarter, and have been since at least 2003. Typically the Adirondack north from NYP to Plattsburgh or Port Kent and then business/vacation time in Burlyington, VT (pickup a rental car out of Plattsburgh, NY). Is it the cheapest transportation mode - all in from NYC to Burlington VT including car rental - absolutely not. But I use the time on the train to get work done as I now can get WiFi for a good portion of the journey (be it through Amtrak or my own personal MiFi hub.....It’s an enjoyable trip. There’s been various recommendations for building even a separate high speed line between Albany and Montreal.

My three wishes for the Adirondack:

1) Better passenger/coach cars or putting a descent Lounge Car on the train to give the best passenger experience in light of the phenomenal scenery! Business class would be nice but I’d probably term it and build the product more as a “Touring” or “Custom Class” - again catering to those who want a more enhanced onboard experience with better equipment - be it for comfort, food service, lounge service, bigger windows, etc.

2) Better Food Service. This train is serving typically breakfast, lunch, and possibly dinner. More variety and better selections would be nice. I’ve suggested that the Adirondack, Vermonter, Pennsylvanian, and Carolinian train sets be outfitted with the Viewliner II Diner / Lounge. Use them to help the State Supported trains that are on the road all day! It could be the single point of food service on the train, but also serve as a nice lounge with its booths/tables and double row of windows for taking in the scenery. Everyone knows that Amtrak has plenty of the Viewliner II Diners sitting around in Hialeah, Florida or deployed as useless axle count cars. Only 11 Viewliner II Diners (aka Sleeper Lounges) are required for regular service The remaining 14 Viewliner II Diners (and the prototype) have no regular assignment. Here’s an opportunity to use 8. Eventually the remaining 6 could be used on the Silver Star and Cardinal. Amtrak can have the prototype as a backup out of NYC since all trains are humbled there - except Vermonter. I am sure more spares will need to be had, but you get the idea.

3) Enhanced onboard experience. People are not taking this train for its quickness. Better understand who the patrons of this train are and see what onboard offering could be had that could generate more revenue - an upsell basically.

I would say though - don’t discount this train for having low ridership, because over the years I’ve seen the ridership grow pretty steadily. There was a time I could go as a single traveller and have the seat next to me empty for he whole trip - or switch from one side to the other for better scenery south and then north of Albany. That’s not the case any more. Even the conductors joke about the ridership being heavy and Amtrak still trying to treat this train at a lower volume ridership level......
 #1534148  by Greg Moore
 
I think the Empire Service trains are ripe for an upgrade, starting with restoring the cafe cars to the trains that originate or terminate in Albany.
And New York State should pony up the money and put on NYS specific goods.

Want some chocolate chip cookies... Friehofers.
Want something with alcohol? 9 Pin Cider and a 1/2 dozen other decent local brew options.
Perhaps a nice heated piece of apple pie in the fall.
A good cheddar cheese platter.

There's a lot New York could do to really make the cafe cars a winner and "sell" New York.

I've also argued NY State should pony up for a few more NY Themed cars out of CAF. Sure, it's been a mess, but it's money spent in NYS.
A nice Viewliner based cafe for the Adirondack would be sweet.

Hmm, the way to do that last one I think is get Amtrak to agree to put the names of NYS Governors on them.
Imagine taking the Adirondack up the Hudson while enjoying some NYS wine while sitting in the "Franklin Delano Roosevelt" and then coming home on the "Alfred Smith" or taking the "Mario Cuomo" out to Buffalo.
 #1534155  by Pensyfan19
 
How about this private company (https://montrealgazette.com/news/local- ... -and-n-y-c) or something similar to it take over all NYS ran trains so this way they could provide better services since they can be funded more by the private sector rather than a limited amount by the government.
 #1534156  by mtuandrew
 
Good point on the local foods: you’d have to arrange to get the right suppliers in the right places, but I’d greatly enjoy a Virginia whiskey or port while on 66 out of Newport News, or a Tillamook cheese platter on the Cascades.

I expect the new Regional order will have extra options. If Amtrak is willing to dedicate the cars to the right trainsets, states could decide to buy and stock their own cafe/lounges as a tourism tool. It would certainly fit the experiential model.

—————

Pensyfan: so far the only private passenger rail operations in North America since 1979 (excluding tourist lines and museums) are Auto-Train (defunct), American Orient Express/Pullman Rail Journeys (defunct), On-Track Syracuse commuter rail (defunct), Rocky Mountaineer, and Virgin Brightline. Nothing else has touched the rails; they’re more than welcome to try.
 #1534158  by STrRedWolf
 
Send two Viewliner II Diners up to the Pennsy as an on-demand breakfast/lunch/dinner service during the summer months. Lunch/diner on 43, breakfast/lunch on 42. Discount if you are in business class, and I will be happy to pay the extra for more room and better food. Railroad french toast w/bacon would be better than a Jimmy Dean breakfast biscuit any day!

The only issue I could see is dinner on the 43, because it gets into Pittsburgh roughly around 8pm. Nice if it's late, but you gotta close up if you're a half-hour away from the city.
 #1534163  by Greg Moore
 
Pensyfan19 wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:25 pm How about this private company (https://montrealgazette.com/news/local- ... -and-n-y-c) or something similar to it take over all NYS ran trains so this way they could provide better services since they can be funded more by the private sector rather than a limited amount by the government.
There's a funny thing about private companies, they want a return on investment. So far, that doesn't seem to work, especially in the US.

I think this guy's plan is a pipe dream and I wouldn't hold my breath.
 #1534175  by R36 Combine Coach
 
mtuandrew wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:32 pm Good point on the local foods: you’d have to arrange to get the right suppliers in the right places, but I’d greatly enjoy a Virginia whiskey or port while on 66 out of Newport News, or a Tillamook cheese platter on the Cascades.
The Vermonter and Ethan Allen, when they began had local Vermont specialties on board, much like the Downeaster does with Maine products. The "Taste NY" program has regional items on Empire trains. The Caltrans fleet has its own unique state-oriented menu.

The Pennsylvanian could have Lancaster County pretzels and Primanti sandwiches, southern specialties on the Crescent, St. Louis gooey butter cakes on the Illinois/Missouri service and Michigan specialties on the Wolverine.
Greg Moore wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:21 pm I've also argued NY State should pony up for a few more NY Themed cars out of CAF. Sure, it's been a mess, but it's money spent in NYS.
A nice Viewliner based cafe for the Adirondack would be sweet.
Would be fitting with Montreal specialties: wood fired bagels and poutine.

mtuandrew wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:32 pm So far the only private passenger rail operations in North America since 1979 (excluding tourist lines and museums) are Auto-Train (defunct), American Orient Express/Pullman Rail Journeys (defunct), On-Track Syracuse commuter rail (defunct), Rocky Mountaineer, and Virgin Brightline. Nothing else has touched the rails; they’re more than welcome to try.
Also the Algoma Central (suspended as of July 2015), a CN operated service with subsidy (the tour train is a separate operation from the passenger rail line).
 #1534195  by mtuandrew
 
Forgot about Algoma Central (which is weird because I rode it post-WC and pre-CN.) Point stands though - its non-tourist segments were discontinued, and as with the Ontario Northland and the Hudson Bay Rwy, their regular passenger rail operations were/are subsidized heavily by government.

Anyway. The concept of up-sell accommodations on a day train keeps going around, but Amtrak already has the most spacious seating of any regularly-scheduled economy transportation in America. It does not offer food & beverage upgrades at ticket purchase, prepaid lounge access, or other “goodies” that would pad the bottom line for Regionals. Maybe it should.
 #1534204  by Arborwayfan
 
Regional (and maybe Empire, Downeaster, etc.) as dinner-train-to-somewhere. Put a Viewliner diner with its real kitchen, a cook, a couple waiters, etc., onto a train and sell seats in it at fares that cover the cost of moving and maintaining the seating part of the car. (Dining car seating as revenue seating, for people with no right to sit in coach or business, as Iowa Pacific did on the Hoosier State.) Offer per-seat discounts to anyone who buys both seats on one side of a table or all four seats at a table, whether or not they have 2 or 4 people in their party (a whole table for the price of three fares, say). Order meal at same time as ticket; it's not included, but someone who gets a meal gets a small discount off the ticket price compared to someone who just wants to sit at the table and work. Sell decent neighborhood-restaurant type food: eggs, french toast, hashbrowns, grilled burgers, nice sandwiches, fresh soup, bagels, fresh pie, the sort of thing that goes for 10-15 dollars a plate at stationary restaurants, but price it at 15-20 ish and try to break even on the ingredients, labor, and the cost of hauling around the kitchen part of the car. Drinks can be ordered onboard.

People ride dinner trains to eat indifferent food while looking at an ordinary view on the way to nowhere. Maybe people would ride a "breakfast train" from Boston to their meeting in New Haven, or New Haven to their meeting in New York, a lunch train from New York to Baltimore, etc. Eating on the way is faster than eating on the ground. Amtrak has the cars. It would not be hard to restock the car at both ends. They could try this for a few months without having to buy anything new, and just drop it if it didn't succeed.
 #1534221  by eolesen
 
Don’t forget Iowa Pacific tried to be a private experiential operator competing against Amtrak within the past five years.

They’re now for all intents and purposes defunct as well...


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 #1534226  by Tadman
 
Iowa Pacific had some good ideas but it was a bad example of "railfans playing trains". At worst, it soured Amtrak and a few other major carriers on private ventures any time soon. There are also a lot of local governments and suppliers that are not happy about how some of the tourist operations were run and closed down.

Let's be honest, for five years they bought everything streamlined that could sort of roll. That was a ton of money, and I have no idea where they got it or who was silly enough to lend all that money for a rolling museum. There was little focus and little business plan.
 #1534258  by Arborwayfan
 
Notice that I'm suggesting Amtrak try the diner-as-revenue-seating-for-transportation-while-eating (or the dinner-train-to-somewhere) with very new cars that it already owns and does not use, with its own staff, in a way that would add a new seating option on some trains that are already well-patronized without requiring any substantial capital investment or any negotiation with third parties.

I only bring up the IP Hoosier State because the option of riding in the dome diner and getting fed was pretty attractive and well used (if a bit uncomfortable after the first two or three hours) and the food was good food of the type that is inherently not that expensive but still tasty and fresh. Seeing a happy crew working out and back to run a real dining car that happy passengers actually paid to sit in on a short trip really made me think that a short-distance diner used as revenue seating might be the best part of the whole experiment. I don't think it's why IP got into trouble nationally, and probably not on the Hoosier State either. The three-way public-public-private partnership (running on three different private host railroads and terribly slow schedule with lots of delays) produced a whole bunch of problems that Amtrak would not have doing this on the NEC.
 #1534273  by mtuandrew
 
And Amtrak got to see the Ellis trainwreck up close, both PRJ and the IP-run Hoosier State. There were a lot of negatives to both operations, but one of the consistently-positive feedbacks was the dome and the meal service. You’re gonna be looking at cornfields and wind farms one way or another when going CHI-IND, but it’s a lot more interesting when you can see the entire horizon than when you’re staring through a Horizon window.
 #1534280  by ThirdRail7
 
A great deal of these suggestions would cost the states money they may not want to part with. Additionally, if it gets too fancy, you may draw the ire of Congress. Remember when they used the "Club" car on the NEC against Amtrak?