NEC B&P Tunnels in Trains Feb 2020

[STrRedWolf]

So I got word that the Feb 2020 issue was hitting the digital download... and immediately the cover was of the B&P. They did a story on it, it's history, the finalized plans, and that it's waiting for funding.

In short (skipping over the history), the replacement entails:

• Reworking the curve at the West Baltimore MARC station for a better angle of attack on the new tunnel and a high platform here.
• Four tracks.
• the portal opening east of the curve into the old B&P's Gilmor Street section.
• Tracks dive under the existing MTA Maryland subway, then track 3 will swing under track 1 and 2 and tuck between A and 1, for MARC service to be lined right. This duck-under will be right past Eutaw street.
• Tunnel end is... ew.. this is nasty. Right at exit 7A of the Jones Falls Expressway (I-83), between the main MTA Light Rail shop and the North Avenue Light Rail station. I had to pull out the FRA Record of Decision to get the dope on it, and it looks like it'll be tunneled right under the North Avenue station and pop out there. That's going to be risky.
• CHARLES interlock is getting reworked and extended.
• B&P gets closed after the trains are rerouted and "stored" until they decide what to do with it.
• Oh, and the price tag went up to $5B in today's money over $4.5B in 2017 money.
• ...and Gateway (Hudson River tunnels) is higher priority.
• ...and Amtrak is limited by law to $1.8B per year for everything.

[east point]

a one time proposal for the old B&P was to store some MARC trains there, would require some refurbishment. BAL train station could become very busy when there are 4 main tracks both directions.

[STrRedWolf]

a one time proposal for the old B&P was to store some MARC trains there, would require some refurbishment. BAL train station could become very busy when there are 4 main tracks both directions.

Not really. I would see more service to Martins State Airport and the yard there over having to shove trains into the B&P when there's a risk of losing them.

[njtmnrrbuff]

When those tunnels are built and the NEC is routed through them, that would certainly help reduce more time from the already fast south end NEC schedule. Something tells me that W. Baltimore MARC Station would have to be moved a little south as the present station is on a curve making it pretty tough to erect a high level platform. Martin State Airport Station needs both sided high level platforms and a pedestrian bridge.

[rcthompson04]

Does Maryland have any interest in coming up with some of the cash for this expensive endeavor?

[orulz]

The B&P tunnel project as proposed is a perfect example of *everything* that's wrong with US planning.

It is a quad-tracked, double-stacked, wire-racked, smoke-stacked... daddy-mack, heart-attack of a project. As planned, there was apparently absolutely no attempt to reduce scope or manage costs. Nor was there any attempt to look at this tunnel as a piece of a broader vision for rail transportation within Baltimore and the Northeast. It is conceived as a fully stand-alone effort, with little consideration for what goes on outside its project limits. At the same time, every stakeholder got every single whiz-bang feature they asked for within that tunnel, because - hey, what's money, anyway?

• All four tunnels will be cleared for double stack freight
• All four tunnels will be fitted with electric wires even though no electric freight is planned
• All four tunnels will have very shallow grades that can handle standard US issue underpowered diesel freight trains
• All four tunnels will have ventilation equipment to handle diesels and possible freight fires
• All four tunnels will have emergency facilities to accommodate full passenger loads

The list goes on.

• There seems to be no plan for separating freight and passenger traffic; all the tunnels appear to be shared use?
• They failed to negotiate for CSX's support in this endeavour; instead, CSX plans on excavating the floor of their Howard Street tunnel to make it deeper, which will:
  • Take up another large chunk of state funding
  • Perpetuate the dangerous practice of running freight beneath the streets of the densest part of downtown Baltimore
  • Spoil the tunnel so that it will no longer be easily possible to move the light rail into it. The light rail currently runs on-street directly overhead, frustrating passengers with a maddeningly slow 1.5 mile slog down Howard Street through downtown. Speeding this up would go a long way toward making the light rail line more useful and popular.
• They also plan on basically abandoning the existing B&P tunnel, possibly filling it in with dirt or geofoam or some other such nonsense, rather than refurbishing it and putting it to some better use (like dedicated MARC tracks, or even light rail).

[rcthompson04]

The B&P tunnel project as proposed is a perfect example of *everything* that's wrong with US planning.

It is a quad-tracked, double-stacked, wire-racked, smoke-stacked... daddy-mack, heart-attack of a project. As planned, there was apparently absolutely no attempt to reduce scope or manage costs. Nor was there any attempt to look at this tunnel as a piece of a broader vision for rail transportation within Baltimore and the Northeast. It is conceived as a fully stand-alone effort, with little consideration for what goes on outside its project limits. At the same time, every stakeholder got every single whiz-bang feature they asked for within that tunnel, because - hey, what's money, anyway?

• All four tunnels will be cleared for double stack freight
• All four tunnels will be fitted with electric wires even though no electric freight is planned
• All four tunnels will have very shallow grades that can handle standard US issue underpowered diesel freight trains
• All four tunnels will have ventilation equipment to handle diesels and possible freight fires
• All four tunnels will have emergency facilities to accommodate full passenger loads

The list goes on.

• There seems to be no plan for separating freight and passenger traffic; all the tunnels appear to be shared use?
• They failed to negotiate for CSX's support in this endeavour; instead, CSX plans on excavating the floor of their Howard Street tunnel to make it deeper, which will:
  • Take up another large chunk of state funding
  • Perpetuate the dangerous practice of running freight beneath the streets of the densest part of downtown Baltimore
  • Spoil the tunnel so that it will no longer be easily possible to move the light rail into it. The light rail currently runs on-street directly overhead, frustrating passengers with a maddeningly slow 1.5 mile slog down Howard Street through downtown. Speeding this up would go a long way toward making the light rail line more useful and popular.
• They also plan on basically abandoning the existing B&P tunnel, possibly filling it in with dirt or geofoam or some other such nonsense, rather than refurbishing it and putting it to some better use (like dedicated MARC tracks, or even light rail).

That is because nobody’s job is on the line nor are they being compensated for getting it done within a reasonable budget.

[STrRedWolf]

• All four tunnels will be cleared for double stack freight
• All four tunnels will be fitted with electric wires even though no electric freight is planned
• All four tunnels will have very shallow grades that can handle standard US issue underpowered diesel freight trains
• All four tunnels will have ventilation equipment to handle diesels and possible freight fires
• All four tunnels will have emergency facilities to accommodate full passenger loads

The list goes on.

Because Norfolk Southern has track rights... and two train sets that run through there at night. Yep, Amtrak runs freight on the NEC!

• There seems to be no plan for separating freight and passenger traffic; all the tunnels appear to be shared use?
• They failed to negotiate for CSX's support in this endeavour; instead, CSX plans on excavating the floor of their Howard Street tunnel to make it deeper, which will:
  • Take up another large chunk of state funding
  • Perpetuate the dangerous practice of running freight beneath the streets of the densest part of downtown Baltimore
  • Spoil the tunnel so that it will no longer be easily possible to move the light rail into it. The light rail currently runs on-street directly overhead, frustrating passengers with a maddeningly slow 1.5 mile slog down Howard Street through downtown. Speeding this up would go a long way toward making the light rail line more useful and popular.

See above. You also must remember, Light Rail was built by politics alone, and thus why it's in that state now.

• They also plan on basically abandoning the existing B&P tunnel, possibly filling it in with dirt or geofoam or some other such nonsense, rather than refurbishing it and putting it to some better use (like dedicated MARC tracks, or even light rail).

I would fill it in! The tunnel springs leaks almost every hour, from underground springs. It's just a ticking time bomb, just like the Hudson River tunnels. The only difference between the B&P and the Hudson is that you have a viable work-around with CSX track (if damned slow and expensive in comparison) in Baltimore. You don't have that on the Hudson.

[east point]

DO the present national fire codes require an exit about every 800 feet in a tunnel to another tunnel for emergency relief?. That requirement if so would require a minimum of 2 tracks with full emergency equipment. But if one tunnel of a pair is out of service for whatever reason the the other 2 pairs will need to be used. now how the emergence cross corridors are planned might mitigate that problem.

As this poster remembers the set up of the tunnels only allows for one tunnel to exit to CSX on the north side. Although the NS freight service is minimal there is always an outside chance that freight service could expand very much!

[David Benton]

a tunnel has a 100 -150 year life span(on paper for tax/accounting purposes, probably 50 years) . Makes sense to cover every possible future use , though you would think diesel would eventually be phased out .

[mtuandrew]

a tunnel has a 100 -150 year life span(on paper for tax/accounting purposes, probably 50 years) . Makes sense to cover every possible future use , though you would think diesel would eventually be phased out .

Diesel yes, self-contained power no. Toxic emissions may not be the issue in the future but I expect there will still be need to ventilate the new Baltimore tunnels for water vapor and CO2 waste.

[Suburban Station]

So I got word that the Feb 2020 issue was hitting the digital download... and immediately the cover was of the B&P. They did a story on it, it's history, the finalized plans, and that it's waiting for funding.

In short (skipping over the history), the replacement entails:

• Reworking the curve at the West Baltimore MARC station for a better angle of attack on the new tunnel and a high platform here.
• Four tracks.
• the portal opening east of the curve into the old B&P's Gilmor Street section.
• Tracks dive under the existing MTA Maryland subway, then track 3 will swing under track 1 and 2 and tuck between A and 1, for MARC service to be lined right. This duck-under will be right past Eutaw street.
• Tunnel end is... ew.. this is nasty. Right at exit 7A of the Jones Falls Expressway (I-83), between the main MTA Light Rail shop and the North Avenue Light Rail station. I had to pull out the FRA Record of Decision to get the dope on it, and it looks like it'll be tunneled right under the North Avenue station and pop out there. That's going to be risky.
• CHARLES interlock is getting reworked and extended.
• B&P gets closed after the trains are rerouted and "stored" until they decide what to do with it.
• Oh, and the price tag went up to $5B in today's money over $4.5B in 2017 money.
• ...and Gateway (Hudson River tunnels) is higher priority.
• ...and Amtrak is limited by law to $1.8B per year for everything.

this is exactly what debt financing is for. what it the normal useful life on a tunnel, 100 years? paying for it with one year's appropriation would be crazy. arguably the bonds should be longer term than the 27 year life of a RRIF loan. the question is what portion is attributable to MARC and can maryland afford that? If Amtrak is committing a billion to VA there should be a similar number, of not more, committed to this.

[scratchyX]

• All four tunnels will be cleared for double stack freight
• All four tunnels will be fitted with electric wires even though no electric freight is planned
• All four tunnels will have very shallow grades that can handle standard US issue underpowered diesel freight trains
• All four tunnels will have ventilation equipment to handle diesels and possible freight fires
• All four tunnels will have emergency facilities to accommodate full passenger loads

The list goes on.

Because Norfolk Southern has track rights... and two train sets that run through there at night. Yep, Amtrak runs freight on the NEC!

• There seems to be no plan for separating freight and passenger traffic; all the tunnels appear to be shared use?
• They failed to negotiate for CSX's support in this endeavour; instead, CSX plans on excavating the floor of their Howard Street tunnel to make it deeper, which will:
  • Take up another large chunk of state funding
  • Perpetuate the dangerous practice of running freight beneath the streets of the densest part of downtown Baltimore
  • Spoil the tunnel so that it will no longer be easily possible to move the light rail into it. The light rail currently runs on-street directly overhead, frustrating passengers with a maddeningly slow 1.5 mile slog down Howard Street through downtown. Speeding this up would go a long way toward making the light rail line more useful and popular.

See above. You also must remember, Light Rail was built by politics alone, and thus why it's in that state now.

• They also plan on basically abandoning the existing B&P tunnel, possibly filling it in with dirt or geofoam or some other such nonsense, rather than refurbishing it and putting it to some better use (like dedicated MARC tracks, or even light rail).

I would fill it in! The tunnel springs leaks almost every hour, from underground springs. It's just a ticking time bomb, just like the Hudson River tunnels. The only difference between the B&P and the Hudson is that you have a viable work-around with CSX track (if damned slow and expensive in comparison) in Baltimore. You don't have that on the Hudson.

I disagree. If there is a chance to rebuild the tunnel, use it for connecting local (as opposed to express) MARC trains to the metro subway, and maybe (using a a partly dug tunnel) to the North avenue Light rail station.

[SRich]

Wil the new tunnels be a part of the NEC? If the answer is yes then i think as Amtrak we be the owner that they must pay a large part of it....

[STrRedWolf]

Wil the new tunnels be a part of the NEC? If the answer is yes then i think as Amtrak we be the owner that they must pay a large part of it....

The new tunnels are part of the NEC. Amtrak is the one spearheading the replacement. MARC/MD DOT is not involved.