NEC Future: S-Line (Petersburg, VA - Ridgeway, NC)

[gokeefe]

I think the whole point of the deal is to enhance the existing corridor through a shared partnership with CSX. Yes, VA will own tracks 3 & 4 but as I understand it they will be able to use all four tracks along with CSX in order to better manage traffic.

It's a relatively enlightened approach to handling the challenges inherent in mixed operations with high frequency of both passenger and freight.

[mtuandrew]

I think the whole point of the deal is to enhance the existing corridor through a shared partnership with CSX. Yes, VA will own tracks 3 & 4 but as I understand it they will be able to use all four tracks along with CSX in order to better manage traffic.

It's a relatively enlightened approach to handling the challenges inherent in mixed operations with high frequency of both passenger and freight.

Indeed; the same thing seems to work with NCRR and NS. Remember, this purchase is not only a boon to passenger rail, it’s an immense gift to Jacksonville HQ. I’ll have to observe whether I ever see CSX freights on Virginia-owned tracks from now forward.

[bostontrainguy]

Maybe time for New York State to try to buy half of the ROW to Buffalo?

[TheOneKEA]

Will an Amtrak coach yard need to be constructed or adapted in Ridgeway to service the Amfleet coaches when they go out of service? Or will they be cleaned, watered and reloaded in the station platforms or station yard? I tried to follow the S-Line alignment on Google Maps to see if there are any existing sidings or yards that could be used along the right-of-way but I didn’t see any.

Also, where exactly is “Ridgeway”? Based on the map in the Railway Age article, it looks like it’s somewhere in the vicinity of Henderson, NC.

[Bob Roberts]

Will an Amtrak coach yard need to be constructed or adapted in Ridgeway to service the Amfleet coaches when they go out of service? Or will they be cleaned, watered and reloaded in the station platforms or station yard? I tried to follow the S-Line alignment on Google Maps to see if there are any existing sidings or yards that could be used along the right-of-way but I didn’t see any.

Also, where exactly is “Ridgeway”? Based on the map in the Railway Age article, it looks like it’s somewhere in the vicinity of Henderson, NC.

There won’t be any service that terminates in Ridgeway, nothing will happen on the S Line until NC gets its act together and owns the tracks from the state line to Raleigh.

NCDOT has a service yard in Capital Yard in Raleigh (where it keeps the Piedmont gear) and a brand new (still unused) passenger gear storage / service yard in Charlotte, I am sure any train using the S-Line (other than Florida service) will be turned in one of those two places for the foreseeable future.

[TheOneKEA]

Will an Amtrak coach yard need to be constructed or adapted in Ridgeway to service the Amfleet coaches when they go out of service? Or will they be cleaned, watered and reloaded in the station platforms or station yard? I tried to follow the S-Line alignment on Google Maps to see if there are any existing sidings or yards that could be used along the right-of-way but I didn’t see any.

Also, where exactly is “Ridgeway”? Based on the map in the Railway Age article, it looks like it’s somewhere in the vicinity of Henderson, NC.

There won’t be any service that terminates in Ridgeway, nothing will happen on the S Line until NC gets its act together and owns the tracks from the state line to Raleigh.

NCDOT has a service yard in Capital Yard in Raleigh (where it keeps the Piedmont gear) and a brand new (still unused) passenger gear storage / service yard in Charlotte, I am sure any train using the S-Line (other than Florida service) will be turned in one of those two places for the foreseeable future.

Thanks for the info. Is Ridgeway just a suburb of Raleigh, then?

[mtuandrew]

Thanks for the info. Is Ridgeway just a suburb of Raleigh, then?

I suppose you could vaguely call it an exurb, but Ridgeway is a very small town - more of a wide spot in the road - in the countryside about 60 miles northeast of Raleigh. It looks to be the current end of the line, according to satellite imagery. When North Carolina does finally purchase and improve the CSX Norlina Sub, it could easily become a commuter town.

Maybe time for New York State to try to buy half of the ROW to Buffalo?

CSX is certainly signaling that it is willing to wheel and deal. Beyond New York State, I think that Michigan should inquire about the ex-Pere Marquette Detroit-Lansing and ex-New York Central Detroit-Toledo lines, and New Jersey about right-of-way of the ex-Reading from West Trenton to Bound Brook.

[Bob Roberts]

Thanks for the info. Is Ridgeway just a suburb of Raleigh, then?

Nah, its in the sticks. Ridgeway is just a wide spot in the road up near Norlina (you can see it on google maps). I believe the only reason we are discussing it is that CSX abandoned all of the S-Line north of Ridgeway and still runs some local service to the South.

NCDOT have been in discussions with CSX about acquiring the S-Line for many years. I believe they have an agreement in place, the only reason the deal hasn’t been done was waiting on Virginia to handle its end. I would bet the NC portion of the S-Line will have public ownership shortly — although there is a bunch of partisan arm wrestling about the budget going on at the moment.

The NCRR pays an annual dividend to its owner (the state of NC), the legislature has earmarked those dividends for rail system improvements like the S-Line. The dividends were theoretically being used to get Raleigh to Wilmington passenger service moving, but I have seen no evidence that has been happening.

[mtuandrew]

I wonder whether the SEHSR project will straighten the curves between LaCrosse and Dinwiddie when rebuilding, or leave the original alignment intact. South of there has lots of tangent track, north is the relatively short segment to active rail at Collier Yard. Related, I’m interested in seeing what grade separation happens.

[Bob Roberts]

Related, I’m interested in seeing what grade separation happens.

Its been a while since I have seen it discussed (it may have been in the S-Line EIS) but I believe the Virginia section runs mostly in a trench and will be nearly 100% grade separated thanks to that.

NCDOT and the NCRR have been relatively aggressive about eliminating grade crossings in the Triangle area (hopefully in preparation for commuter rail). I suspect they will want to eliminate as many as possible on the S-Line as well.

[east point]

Check out the map and the colored train lines and time of completion. Note will all be 4 main tracks from 1st avenue tunnel to beyond ALX. Then basically 2 and 3 main tracks all way to Richmond. Cannot for see any electrification until route is all 4 tracks with 2 for passenger except all 4 tracks WASH US to past ALX. Too far in the future to even speculate. Noted Long bridge completion planning has year 2030. 4 main tracks to ALX to carry Manassas VRE and Amtrak trains.

http://www.drpt.virginia.gov/media/3013 ... ia-map.pdf

[RRspatch]

Maybe time for New York State to try to buy half of the ROW to Buffalo?

It would make a lot of sense for New York to swing a deal with CSXT the same way Virginia did. In fact New York would actually have a huge advantage over Virginia in expanding service. The reason for this is because the RF&P, with the exception of Franconia hill, was always a two track railroad. Every inch of new 3rd and 4th track that Virginia builds will cost big $$$. In the case of New York the old New York Central was four tracks wide from Albany to Cleveland. When the NY Central CTC'ed back in the 50's/60's they took up two tracks, usually the two outer tracks, and left the two center tracks. Since most of the passenger stations are on the south side relaying the two missing tracks would give CSXT the two northern tracks and Amtrak the two southern tracks.

In light of what Virginia was able to negotiate with CSXT then New York State should be trying to do the same deal.

[orulz]

I wonder whether the SEHSR project will straighten the curves between LaCrosse and Dinwiddie when rebuilding, or leave the original alignment intact. South of there has lots of tangent track, north is the relatively short segment to active rail at Collier Yard. Related, I’m interested in seeing what grade separation happens.

I am very curious about this too.

The initial thought on the S-line was to go all the way - build it as a high speed route, with no grade crossings, and no curve slower than 110mph. Really, grade crossings are allowed at 110mph, and frequencies are not likely to be so high as to be disruptive to traffic; the only reason to pursue full grade separation would be if they actually have their eye on going faster than 110mph in the future. At any rate, they have full environmental clearance to start acquiring property and get this under construction as soon as possible.

That said, there's no money to build it. So, lately, I've heard more discussion of opening the route mostly at-grade, with fewer curve changes, and with a 79mph top speed. The idea would be to get it running ASAP and then incrementally upgrade it by straightening curves.

Regardless, NCDOT has been pursuing grade separations along the line near Raleigh. Four of them (New Hope Church Road, Millbrook Road, Durant Road, and Rogers Road) are funded and planned to begin construction within the next two years. The stated reasoning for this is to clear the decks for passenger trains, both commuter and high speed.

[Arlington]

The "how much curve straightening" question is answered in the FRA Record of Decision based on Tier II EIS

In general, on about 1 out of 4 maps there's at least a small diversion from the current ROW--nipping 100' or less off the centerline, taking a grove of trees or an empty meadow so as to make things gentler.

But for Dinwidde and La Crosse, specifically, there are longer, larger new ROW diversions that are officially part of the deal:
Map 40 41 42 Dinwidde, they slice a tangent to eliminate the curves
Appendix R.1 - Detailed Maps - Virginia
(Big PDF)

Map 84 85 La Crosse (smaller "typical" diversions on Maps 79 81 and 82 on the north side of town)
Appendix R.2 - Detailed Maps - North Carolina(Big PDF)

Map 84 85 86 also should a "we could have gone straighter, but we didn't" alignment to the east of the proposed alignment.

[east point]

It would make a lot of sense for New York to swing a deal with CSXT the same way Virginia did. In fact New York would actually have a huge advantage over Virginia in expanding service. The reason for this is because the RF&P, with the exception of Franconia hill, was always a two track railroad. Every inch of new 3rd and 4th track that Virginia builds will cost big $$$. In the case of New York the old New York Central was four tracks wide from Albany to Cleveland. When the NY Central CTC'ed back in the 50's/60's they took up two tracks, usually the two outer tracks, and left the two center tracks. Since most of the passenger stations are on the south side relaying the two missing tracks would give CSXT the two northern tracks and Amtrak the two southern tracks.

In light of what Virginia was able to negotiate with CSXT then New York State should be trying to do the same deal.

Agree but however if you study the map there will only be medium length 3rd tracks and no 4th track south of Franconia. That just goes to ear 2030. One reason is the map shows Long bridge not complete till 2030. Yes 4 tracks till past ALX due to the traffic that will split off to Manassas.

http://www.drpt.virginia.gov/media/3013 ... ia-map.pdf