Amtrak ticket refund policies to change

[Arborwayfan]

Why, every weekend I think "Do I buy that new shirt from Gucci or from Target?" Seriously, though, they are. Plenty of people have enough money and interest to buy some expensive designer clothes but still need to buy most of their clothes more cheaply; or they can afford either a fancy gas grill or a designer coat or a little vacation, but not both. At the margin, Gucci and Target are in competition for those people's business. Maybe neither of them really aims at those people, but I'm sure plenty of people buy from both and that that affects the price and presentation of some items at both companies.

Same with Amtrak. There are absolutely people out there who teeter on the edge of bus vs. train in the NEC region, or who sometimes use one and sometimes the other. Not the people who can only afford the cheapest bus fare (I'll concede that Amtrak is not really in competition for those passengers) but somewhere along the line between them and people who can easily afford the Acela fare and who can't imagine taking any bus are thousands and thousands of people who can sometimes afford the train, or who can always afford it but sometimes feel better saving the money. And the existence of those people either affects what Amtrak can charge, or only doesn't affect what Amtrak can charge because there is not even enough capacity on the NEC to carry everyone willing to pay Acela fares.

[mohawkrailfan]

Several times I have arrived at the station too early, and called Amtrak to change my reservation to an earlier train that's about to depart. Under this new system, I won't be able to do that anymore, without paying double. So that earlier seat is going to be empty. That seems bad for both me and Amtrak.

[ExCon90]

The all-stops service (however it is organized) should be unreserved, or reserved only in certain cars. We probably can't get the unreserved every 15 minutes in some type of train that they have between Rotterdam and Amsterdam, but we can have unreserved, no-planning-needed-if-you-are-willing-to-stand service on the NEC and any other corridor that someday gets hourly or better service. And if that somehow makes the trains more expensive to run, I'd like to see the math to prove it.

This needs to be more widely understood. The NEC market consists of many people who are not well suited by the need to make advance reservations--as in "I need you to be at this meeting in New York tomorrow." And there are occasions when someone is quite willing to stand for an hour or two in order to get to their destination faster. Even the ICE trains in Germany have, or did have, one compartment per train held off from advance reservation to accommodate last-minute walk-ups.

[Suburban Station]

The all-stops service (however it is organized) should be unreserved, or reserved only in certain cars. We probably can't get the unreserved every 15 minutes in some type of train that they have between Rotterdam and Amsterdam, but we can have unreserved, no-planning-needed-if-you-are-willing-to-stand service on the NEC and any other corridor that someday gets hourly or better service. And if that somehow makes the trains more expensive to run, I'd like to see the math to prove it.

This needs to be more widely understood. The NEC market consists of many people who are not well suited by the need to make advance reservations--as in "I need you to be at this meeting in New York tomorrow." And there are occasions when someone is quite willing to stand for an hour or two in order to get to their destination faster. Even the ICE trains in Germany have, or did have, one compartment per train held off from advance reservation to accommodate last-minute walk-ups.

The culture of the NEC is very last minute yet the current pricing structure is completely disconnected from this reality

[exvalley]

The culture of the NEC is very last minute yet the current pricing structure is completely disconnected from this reality

The pricing structure is VERY connected to that reality. Last minute travelers, as a group, are the most willing to pay higher fares. Amtrak charges them accordingly.

There seems to be some shock in this thread that Amtrak actually runs like a business.

[Suburban Station]

The culture of the NEC is very last minute yet the current pricing structure is completely disconnected from this reality

The pricing structure is VERY connected to that reality. Last minute travelers, as a group, are the most willing to pay higher fares. Amtrak charges them accordingly.

There seems to be some shock in this thread that Amtrak actually runs like a business.

this is mostly incorrect as it relates to NEC last minute traffic. last minute business travelers will because they aren't paying. last minute leisure travelers? no they will not pay. they will further go on to bad mouth amtrak whenever the topic comes up. if you live in the NEC you likely know this to be true. when trips are discretionary people are more discerning. they most likely drive instead because amtrak is completely uncompetitive price-wise but some will take the bus. and please don't bring up airlines since it is not comparable. people take last minute trips between philly and ny in a way that they mostly don't between London and Baltimore. ftr, on the acela one can assume that most passengers are business travelers. on the regionals that is less true, on a weekend regional, it is not true at all.
nobody is arguing amtrak shouldn't run like a business but there's no one way to run a business...and currently there is only one intercity railroad.
and before we go talking about "record ridership," amtrak's nationwide ridership is similar to Philadelphia international alone.

[mtuandrew]

Suburban Station: London to Baltimore does seem like there aren’t many last-minute travelers Definitely more between Baltimore and Washington, but those are even more skewed to car travel.

[MACTRAXX]

Amtrak is not in competition with busses, at least along the Northeast Corridor. They have absolutely no desire in chasing the customer who is only willing to pay $14 to get from Boston to New York.

Amtrak is in competition with cars and buses.

EXV, SS and Everyone:

After following this topic from its beginning I agree that Amtrak IS in a form of
competition with auto travel and buses in the Northeast.

There is a very price-sensitive sub market that will choose the cheapest bus or
commuter rail option over Amtrak to save money...

Since we are all familiar with the alternate rail options I am going to mention examples
of bus companies that offer low cost NEC travel:

Go Buses https://www.gobuses.com
Lucky Star Bus https://www.luckystarbus.com
(A "Chinese" bus company currently operating between New York City and Boston)

The now-defunct Fung Wah Bus which operated services between New York and Boston
from 1996 until 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fung_Wah_ ... sportation

Taking away the flexibility factor of being able to make itinerary changes does count
when it comes to making the choice to travel by train or other mode between NEC
stations. Nickel and diming riders that pay lower fares (as described previously) is
not the way to go to improve Amtrak's appeal to more price-sensitive riders. I also
agree that the market that Amtrak appeals to is not the "lowest fare possible" type.

MACTRAXX

[exvalley]

this is mostly incorrect as it relates to NEC last minute traffic. last minute business travelers will because they aren't paying. last minute leisure travelers?

There are MANY more last minute business travelers on the NEC than last minute leisure travelers. Thus my statement that, as a group, last minute travelers are willing to pay more.

In a world of limited capacity, it makes perfect sense to let the few last minute leisure travelers go in order to capture the last minute business traveler who is willing to pay a much higher price.

This is economics 101 here.

[unichris]

people take last minute trips between philly and ny

That's precisely the situation where a SEPTA + NJT solution *does* provide rail competition.

Yes, it's a bit slower, yes, it's less comfortable. But it's also quite a bit cheaper and available at the last minute, so just like a bus, it is definitely an option.

[Suburban Station]

There are MANY more last minute business travelers on the NEC than last minute leisure travelers. Thus my statement that, as a group, last minute travelers are willing to pay more.

eh, not really.

In a world of limited capacity, it makes perfect sense to let the few last minute leisure travelers go in order to capture the last minute business traveler who is willing to pay a much higher price.
This is economics 101 here.

it is less economics 101 than nice story to fit your point. the reality is Amtrak sets capacity, it also sets prices and policies and competes with other ground transportation. amtrak's NEC ridership had been weak for years until they launched discount programs late last year. leisure travelers are last minute travelers, this is the culture of the NEC, and especially for short distance trips. don't get me wrong, I'm sure Amtrak believes what you say is true, it just isn't, and certainly isn't true every day of the year. it's just easier for managers to do less work by setting across the board policies without regard to actual demand.

people take last minute trips between philly and ny

That's precisely the situation where a SEPTA + NJT solution *does* provide rail competition.

Yes, it's a bit slower, yes, it's less comfortable. But it's also quite a bit cheaper and available at the last minute, so just like a bus, it is definitely an option.

it's not competition at all. it's slower than the bus and requires a transfer in trenton. imagine if you had to change cars in trenton when you drove and your car may or may not be waiting for you.

[exvalley]

I don't have Amtrak's numbers, but in regard to airlines, business travelers account for 12% percent of passengers but account for as much as 75% of profits.

Amtrak knows what they are doing - especially with Anderson at the helm.

[unichris]

it's not competition at all. it's slower than the bus and requires a transfer in trenton. imagine if you had to change cars in trenton when you drove and your car may or may not be waiting for you.

I'm not convinced that SEPTA + NJT is slower than a bus. Maybe if the bus really lucks out on the traffic situation and the portal bridge is stuck again... Besides, you get off a train feeling human, you get off an inter city bus needing a shower.

That said I only tried it that way once, because I've only needed to go that way once. And Amtrak would have cost literally twice as much.

But I can and do pick MNR + Hartford Line or Shore Line East over the corresponding bus any day.

If my plans permit it, I buy Amtrak enough in advance to get a decent price. If it's last minute, or I need to bring my cycling contraption, then I do the back to back commuter rails.

[Suburban Station]

I don't have Amtrak's numbers, but in regard to airlines, business travelers account for 12% percent of passengers but account for as much as 75% of profits.

Amtrak knows what they are doing - especially with Anderson at the helm.

That likely includes acela passengers which would be outside the scope of this discussion and the majority of the 75 percent. That number is going to be smaller for regionals and at any rate is a self serving number because it doesnt reflect the market so much as amtraks current policies. Furthermore, Anderson's mention of a low cost service indicates he is aware of amtraks historical failing. The bigger picture is that as commuters pay more of their share, amtrak passengers should have to pay less of the commuters share and some pressure should come off the ticket price.

Unichris-well I cant convince you but you can look at schedules. Whatever advantages njt has coming out of the tunnels it loses when you have to transfer to another slow train at Trenton. Most of the Trenton passengers drive to NJ.
Due to how slow metro north territory us I will usually ride the commuter but south of nyc amtrak isnt forced to run at uncompetitive speeds.

I also think your bias is misplaced. I know business owners that take the bus. Hell my neighbor who makes well over 100k per year on her own takes the bus.

[eolesen]

Several times I have arrived at the station too early, and called Amtrak to change my reservation to an earlier train that's about to depart. Under this new system, I won't be able to do that anymore, without paying double. So that earlier seat is going to be empty. That seems bad for both me and Amtrak.

And if you do go earlier, a seat on your later train is just as likely to be empty because you took it off the shelf for sale to someone else, and there wasn't an opportunity to resell it.

It's really no skin off Amtrak's nose here.