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  • Amtrak service consistency vs. airlines and pre-Amtrak railroads

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1524284  by SouthernRailway
 
eolesen wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:54 am
Tom M wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:50 pm But... airline employees are unionized, too. In my experience, I've never seen airline employees treat passengers with the indifference shown by some Amtrak employees. So, there's something else going on.
Most US airline employees understand that their customers have choices.... Amtrak has no meaningful competition aside from other modes of travel.
I view it somewhat differently. For many routes, airline passengers don't really have a choice. Would anyone traveling between DFW and CLT take anything other than American, for example? And would anyone on a 700 mile business trip do anything except fly?

If I'm going from Charlotte to Raleigh, for example, while Amtrak is an option, most people would drive. Even in the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak has lots of competition: planes, buses and sometimes commuter railroads.
 #1524313  by ExCon90
 
Regarding Tadman's post above, I think it's somewhat remarkable that on a continent with so many different countries with many different languages they manage with pictograms to convey all necessary information to enable passengers to find and board the right train--and in some cases the right coach--and the passengers manage to do it all by themselves without being herded ... I suspect it's partly a result of people using trains as part of their daily lives from childhood on.

Also, regarding my previous comments about no lounges prior to Amtrak, I just remembered that some larger stations had separate waiting rooms for women and children, but available to all passengers without regard to class of travel.
 #1524325  by gokeefe
 
ExCon90 wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:39 pmAlso, regarding my previous comments about no lounges prior to Amtrak, I just remembered that some larger stations had separate waiting rooms for women and children, but available to all passengers without regard to class of travel.
I am more than a little surprised to discover that the Metropolitan Lounge is (apparently) an innovation entirely unique to Amtrak in the history of American passenger rail service.
 #1524360  by SouthernRailway
 
ExCon90 wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:39 pm Regarding Tadman's post above, I think it's somewhat remarkable that on a continent with so many different countries with many different languages they manage with pictograms to convey all necessary information to enable passengers to find and board the right train--and in some cases the right coach--and the passengers manage to do it all by themselves without being herded ... I suspect it's partly a result of people using trains as part of their daily lives from childhood on.
And it's partly a result of people having IQs above zero, which most people do, and which Amtrak apparently does not recognize.

To board a train at a station, without help, you (1) look at your ticket to see information about the departure, (2) look at the departure board, which indicates the track and status, (3) walk to the track as shown on the departure board and (4) get on the train that's there.

It's not hard.
 #1524363  by CarterB
 
Tadman wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:38 am Most European stations have a small premium lounge that seems to be a recent thing spurred by air competition. The concept of a waiting room in general is not a thing in Europe. Most stations have assorted benches but no climate controlled room, let alone a grand hall. You show up, you get on the train. Of course this also means no Mickey Mouse parading around behind an Amtrak employee either.
No "waiting rooms" in Europe.....because unlike USA,... you don't have to wait. Trains are on time almost to the minute, cross platform transfers are easy and well marked, boarding stations with diagrams for type of car and destination also well marked on each departing train platform. You just arrive at station a few minutes early, go to the platform, look at the train boarding diagram, and in a few minutes your train arrives. No Mickey Mouse boarding procedures like in the US, even at huge main stations. I've traveled rail in Europe for over 25 years and never once had a problem.
 #1524365  by Tadman
 
CarterB wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:55 am No "waiting rooms" in Europe.....because unlike USA,... you don't have to wait. Trains are on time almost to the minute, cross platform transfers are easy and well marked,
I've entertained that line of logic, it's a credible one. But we started the tradition of waiting rooms around 1900 or 1920, when the train was the only way and frequent service was the norm. At that time, there were plenty of options to every city, not just 1/day on one route through each state. So think the logic fails because when Buffalo or Detroit's grand stations were built, each saw 50+ trains/day instead of three.
 #1524395  by gokeefe
 
One of the most compelling reasons for waiting rooms in major terminals would have been layovers. Even back then with extensive service options if you were going to a destination only served by one railroad this would have necessitated a transfer (or two) at some point.

In Europe that wasn't necessarily the case because some countries didn't have multiple carriers (thus creating efficiencies in station configurations). There could still be layovers waiting for the "local" but likely fewer situations resulting from the need to change carriers.

Portland, Maine at one point had competing service to Detroit/Chicago via either the Grand Trunk or the Maine Central (to CP). One can easily imagine the problems this might create for travelers needing to get to a local destination served by the competition.
Last edited by gokeefe on Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 #1524418  by ExCon90
 
Also, with rare exceptions, service was not very frequent--take Chicago to St. Louis, with at one time four railroads providing service, but none of them having more than about three a day, if that, and mostly at times of heavy demand, as with the Alton and Wabash having competing departures at the end of the business day. Someone changing from a Western to an Eastern road at Chicago might have several hours' wait unless destined to an East Coast city.
 #1524419  by ExCon90
 
gokeefe wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:01 pm
ExCon90 wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:39 pmAlso, regarding my previous comments about no lounges prior to Amtrak, I just remembered that some larger stations had separate waiting rooms for women and children, but available to all passengers without regard to class of travel.
I am more than a little surprised to discover that the Metropolitan Lounge is (apparently) an innovation entirely unique to Amtrak in the history of American passenger rail service.
As far as I can tell it was a direct result of the airline practice of establishing (invitational) departure lounges for very frequent passengers, most of them probably first class in those days. Later the regulatory agency (Civil Aeronautics Board?) required the airlines to either discontinue the practice or make the facilities available to all passengers and requiring conditions such as additional payment. Thus began the various "Admirals' Clubs" and such like.
 #1524502  by Arborwayfan
 
The labor movement is a lot stronger in Europe than in the US. Their trains do fine with union workers. I suspect the differences are more likely to be in management practices (although of course different unions could behave differently.).

Great point about hamburgers from charts. Think of our discussions of boarding at Chicago. It's hard to say that a crew that decides to assign everyone a seat before they board the train is being lazy or offering poor service; they think -- correctly -- that that will get people into seats faster; and they've decided that getting groups together is more important than letting everyone choose a seat (a decision I know makes some people mad, but it is a decision). Think about dining car sittings (how many, exactly what times): while sometimes you might run into a crew that seems to be trying to repel customers, most of the variation seems to come from different crews having different ideas about how best to match up the passengers with the kitchen capacity. (Maybe even using 3 or 4 tables for staging salad dressing etc instead of for seating is part of a plan like that, or maybe that is a work-around for equipment that no longer fits the current use, or maybe it's lazy; who knows.) Add impulsive changes in OBS priorities that probably give the more conscientious employees whiplash and a large number of confused first-time passengers, fold in a few passengers who are rude or who have unreasonable expectations, and voila.

I wonder if another set of problems might come from tradition. For whatever reason -- habit, lack of imagination, old equipment, catering to nostalgia, union rules, expectations of loyal customers--Amtrak mostly runs 1950s premium trains with most of the amenities curtailed or removed, rather than 2000s trains with 2000s amenities. 1. Staffing stations is too expensive? Eliminate checked baggage from most trains, but still use cars that make handling big suitcases hard. Some countries instead have a self-service baggage section outside the pax area. (When I had a ski bag with me on the overnight from Trondheim to Bodø, Norway, the conductor helped me strap the bag into the ski section, and when we got off the bag was sitting on the platform for us to collect. Amtrak could do that, but doesn't.) 2. Cooking meals in a kitchen and washing dishes is too expensive? Serve inferior food on disposable plates in a half-used dining car; have wait staff who are generally nice people, but be sure that you don't make thoughtful service or attracting more dining customers a goal. In the cafe, serve expensive mediocre food in an unpleasant, industrial environment, and don't bother telling the pax on the train that either food option is available. Be sure to run out often. 3. Put off changing to electronic ticket collection/accounting for as long as possible. When you do, avoid assigned seats or any other ways that the electronics could make life easier for the customer. 4. Be sure to keep using cars with manual doors to make it hard to let pax off.

And then treat major station boarding like airplane boarding; never, ever copy the Japanese or the Europeans by putting up diagrams to tell people where to stand on the platform if they are in a particular car or going to a particular place.
 #1524515  by Ridgefielder
 
gokeefe wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:56 pm One of the most compelling reasons for waiting rooms in major terminals would have been layovers. Even back then with extensive service options if you were going to a destination only served by one railroad this would have necessitated a transfer (or two) at some point.

In Europe that wasn't necessarily the case because some countries didn't have multiple carriers (thus creating efficiencies in station configurations). There could still be layovers waiting for the "local" but likely fewer situations resulting from the need to change carriers.

Portland, Maine at one point had competing service to Detroit/Chicago via either the Grand Trunk or the Maine Central (to CP). One can easily imagine the problems this might create for travelers needing to get to a local destination served by the competition.
Grand Central Terminal in New York had an extremely grand waiting room-- now Vanderbilt Hall. I doubt anyone ever laid over at GCT to go elsewhere, even in 1913.

The fact is, many people, particularly when traveling with families/luggage/pets/etc. would prefer to leave a bit of leeway. Even if the *train* leaves precisely on time, that doesn't mean that whatever means of conveyance you use to *get to the station* will arrive exactly on time.
 #1524516  by Tadman
 
Arborwayfan wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:58 pm And then treat major station boarding like airplane boarding; never, ever copy the Japanese or the Europeans by putting up diagrams to tell people where to stand on the platform if they are in a particular car or going to a particular place.
I love those diagrams. They work so well. I never have to interact with anybody or get an attitude about where my train is. Look up car #, find letter on platform, board. It's like finding the ketchup at Kroger. Even an idiot can do it.
 #1524611  by mtuandrew
 
Ridgefielder wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:36 pmGrand Central Terminal in New York had an extremely grand waiting room-- now Vanderbilt Hall. I doubt anyone ever laid over at GCT to go elsewhere, even in 1913.
Why would anyone lay over at Grand Central Terminal? It’s literally the end of the line :P And for those travelers who chose that place to transfer from New York Central to NYNH&H or vice versa, there were plenty of cocktail lounges in or around the place.

I think that we are missing the private enterprise aspect of the golden age of train travel. Way back when, no one needed a private railroad-run lounge. All you’d need was a redcap to bring your valise to a locker, a baggage holding area for the rest of your things, and a nearby food & beverage establishment for a coffee, a beer or martini, and a meal; a stationers for cigarettes, candy, or a book if so inclined; a shoe shine or beauty salon( or a department store that included some or all of those amenities. Macy’s didn’t set up next to Pennsylvania Station for kicks and giggles after all. Railroads (Amtrak) only needed private lounges when nearby higher-end establishments pulled up stakes and left.