Hitachi Class 802s adapted for Amtrak

[D.S. Lewith]

One of the biggest obstacles that affects Amtrak services is having to change engines to venture non-electrified tracks from electrified tracks. This affects the Northeast Regional, Keystone/Pennsylvanian, and the New York services (Empire Service/Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Ethan Allen Express). Sure there's the ALP-45DP from Bombardier but I don't think they're going to be practical for intercity rail services. Instead of investing in another locomotive, Amtrak can invest in a multiple unit. This dual-mode multiple unit would be based off the Hitachi Class 802s that are used in the UK, albeit adapted for American rails (i.e. 3 voltages, crashworthiness, a larger design).

What can Amtrak gain by buying this kind of train set?

* Amtrak can sell most of the P32AC-DMs (which they use for the Empire Service, Maple Leaf, Adirondack and Ethan Allen Express trains) to MNCR and LIRR, though some will remain for Lake Shore Limited trains. This can only happen, however, if Amtrak double-tracks the entire Empire connection and extends the overhead electrification to at least where it merges with the MNCR Hudson Line.
* Amtrak can start selling and even retiring P40s and P42s that would have been used on the Northeast Regional, Pennsylvanian, Empire Service, Maple Leaf, Adirondack and Ethan Allen Express.
* Amtrak can lease or even sell several of the ACS-64s that would have been used for the Northeast Regional and Keystone/Pennsylvanian services to other electric commuter railroads. I can see MNCR using them for Penn Station services as they can do 12 kV 25 Hz and 12 kV 60 Hz (which the M8s can't), MARC for express services on the Penn Line (this would also retire the HHP-8s in use), and SEPTA for a future NEC express line. Additionally, Amtrak can sell some of them to MBTA for services on the Providence line (they really should just let MBTA use electric trains on places that are electrified).
* Just like with the P40s and P42s, Amtrak can also start retiring their Amfleet cars (many of which are past 40 years of age).

[Backshophoss]

What "works" in the UK never crosses the pond well and becomes a "road failure" in the US.
FRA never looks/accepts Network Rail's "Safety case" paperwork.
With the exception of the ASEA RC-4,everything else was a failure/crap out

[D.S. Lewith]

What "works" in the UK never crosses the pond well and becomes a "road failure" in the US.
FRA never looks/accepts Network Rail's "Safety case" paperwork.
With the exception of the ASEA RC-4,everything else was a failure/crap out

It wouldn't hurt for Hitachi to adapt their A-Train family for US rails (and now they have a manufacturing facility in Florida). Also, I don't think the Rc4 ever went on UK rails.

[David Benton]

With their honeycomb aluminium walls , these may be strong enough to meet US rules. Also the FRA now seem willing to consider alternate designs that can be proven to provide equilvalent passenger safety to a American buff strenht pass design .

[Backshophoss]

The FRA would not consider the class 802 "Safety Case" paperwork from Network Rail's files vs their alternate standards.
There's something in the designs makes the FRA BALK.
The UK prime movers,mech systems,and transmissions seen to fail under US style conditions.

[electricron]

The electro-diesel or Bi-Mode Class 802 has 3 GU (diesel generator units) per five car set and 5 GU per nine car set. A 5 car set has a GU situated under vehicles 2/3/4 respectively and a 9 car set has a GU situated under vehicles 2/3/5/7/8 respectively.

You might find this interesting!
According to Modern Railways magazine, the limited space available for the GUs has made them prone to overheating. It claims that, on one day in summer 2018, "half the units were out of action as engines shut down through overheating".

FYI: It gets both hotter and colder in the USA than it does in England.
I'm not so sure Amtrak should be buying equipment that half will fail the very first summer it is in use.

[D.S. Lewith]

The electro-diesel or Bi-Mode Class 802 has 3 GU (diesel generator units) per five car set and 5 GU per nine car set. A 5 car set has a GU situated under vehicles 2/3/4 respectively and a 9 car set has a GU situated under vehicles 2/3/5/7/8 respectively.

You might find this interesting!
According to Modern Railways magazine, the limited space available for the GUs has made them prone to overheating. It claims that, on one day in summer 2018, "half the units were out of action as engines shut down through overheating".

FYI: It gets both hotter and colder in the USA than it does in England.
I'm not so sure Amtrak should be buying equipment that half will fail the very first summer it is in use.

I think the larger size that comes with Americanizing a European train should give the GUs space.

[mdvle]

In general taking any train from the UK and trying to use it in the US is going to be a bad idea. UK trains, thanks to history, are just far too small for US uses and by the time you start making all the changes to make them American you may as well have started from scratch.

Mainland Europe equipment would possibly be different given that it is larger than UK stuff and thus may make the transition easier.

So yeah, it's easy to get info on UK trains thanks to the common language but at best you can take concepts and try and transfer them.

As for the concept, it really is a bad idea. The bi-mode Class 80x are the result of the UK Department for Transport (DfT) screwing up the electrification of the former GWR main routes, and because the DfT specified and ordered the 80x units they were forced to go with a worst of both worlds bi-mode that has had at best an interesting introduction into service.

Yes, a larger sized train would remove the size constraints that are causing problems in the UK, but that will at least partially be offset by a heavier train requiring larger (or more) engines, possibly creating a US version of the same problem.

As for Amtrak and your examples, a couple of thoughts.

One, Amtrak really needs to be following the philosophy of the low cast airlines and trying to standardize their fleet as much as possible for the maintenance cost savings and flexibility. Adding in a new design for a handful of routes is problematic.

Second, you end up lugging around extra weight with the combination of electrical equipment, diesel engines, and fuel tanks that result in performance and operating costs that are a version of worst of all worlds.

Thus while an engine change isn't ideal, it is in many respects the least worst option.

[D.S. Lewith]

One, Amtrak really needs to be following the philosophy of the low cast airlines and trying to standardize their fleet as much as possible for the maintenance cost savings and flexibility. Adding in a new design for a handful of routes is problematic.

Second, you end up lugging around extra weight with the combination of electrical equipment, diesel engines, and fuel tanks that result in performance and operating costs that are a version of worst of all worlds.

Thus while an engine change isn't ideal, it is in many respects the least worst option.

Wonder what Amtrak will do with their P32 Genesis locomotives (the dual-modes) then as they are ordering more Chargers to replace their Genesis locomotives since AFAIK they haven't ordered a variant that incorporates third rail for the Empire Connection (though pretty likely they're going to go with whatever future diesel+third rail electric locomotive MNCR and LIRR are going to get). Also, Amtrak has mentioned the Hitachi 800s/802s in their Amtrak Equipment Asset Line Plan FY20-24 study when they were talking about replacing their Amfleets (https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... Y20-24.pdf go to page 33 of the PDF, listed as page 31), and they have addressed the issue of engine changing (they brought up the ALP-45DP as one solution to the issue but they're too heavy and slow to accept).

[David Benton]

I'm sure a company like Hitachi can fix these problems , and offer a suitable product. Wether they would bother for the small American market that has proven difficult is another matter .

[Backshophoss]

Amtrak has a short history of RDC use,and a not to great run of the SPV-2000's.
While UK has developed DMU's,they still don't hold up well in US style operations.
The Charger and the "brightline" coaches were designed for US operations by Siemens
Amtrak Does Push-Pull operations across the US with no problems.
UK "Loading Gauge" does not allow for Roof mounted Radiators,that might cure the overheat problems.
There has been one UK prime mover that was given a shot at us style of operations,but is now being phased out by repowering with
Cummings prime movers,MN's BL20gh are the first to lose the UK prime mover.

[mtuandrew]

One, Amtrak really needs to be following the philosophy of the low cast airlines and trying to standardize their fleet as much as possible for the maintenance cost savings and flexibility. Adding in a new design for a handful of routes is problematic.

Second, you end up lugging around extra weight with the combination of electrical equipment, diesel engines, and fuel tanks that result in performance and operating costs that are a version of worst of all worlds.

Thus while an engine change isn't ideal, it is in many respects the least worst option.

Thank you! Granted, Amtrak doesn’t seem to care that much about excess weight (see the axle count cars on CN and UP, which I understand it is finally addressing with the Surface Transportation Board), but it definitely cares about excess complexity.

Wonder what Amtrak will do with their P32 Genesis locomotives (the dual-modes) then as they are ordering more Chargers to replace their Genesis locomotives since AFAIK they haven't ordered a variant that incorporates third rail for the Empire Connection (though pretty likely they're going to go with whatever future diesel+third rail electric locomotive MNCR and LIRR are going to get).

You answered your own question. Amtrak plans to participate in the MTA/NYSDOT order for electro-diesel power and replace the P32ACDM fleet. I’m not sure whether Amtrak will purchase the replacements itself, or if New York State will own them.

Also, Amtrak has mentioned the Hitachi 800s/802s in their Amtrak Equipment Asset Line Plan FY20-24 study when they were talking about replacing their Amfleets (https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... Y20-24.pdf go to page 33 of the PDF, listed as page 31), and they have addressed the issue of engine changing (they brought up the ALP-45DP as one solution to the issue but they're too heavy and slow to accept).

It’s good to be interested in what others are doing. Amtrak can’t live in the past after all - otherwise it wouldn’t have rolled out the Acela or its replacement, neither the ACS-64 nor the AEM-7 would have served, and neither the P40/P42 series nor the Superliner I would have had trucks to ride on. Whether those designs are the most efficient or suited to American rails is another matter.

I'm sure a company like Hitachi can fix these problems , and offer a suitable product. Wether they would bother for the small American market that has proven difficult is another matter .

And for a customer as notoriously difficult as Amtrak. Still, 500 cars would be worth a second look from any global supplier.

[D.S. Lewith]

I'm sure a company like Hitachi can fix these problems , and offer a suitable product. Wether they would bother for the small American market that has proven difficult is another matter .

Hitachi opened up a manufacturing plant in Florida 3 years ago (https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/3043 ... ring-plant) so I can only imagine theyre planning on making a mark on regular US rail eventually like their counterparts Nippon Sharyo and Sumitomo

[east point]

Loco changes at WASH are not usually the controlling metric for station dwell. Instead it is the movement of passenger to / from the main station waiting area. Each platform serves 2 tracks and the stairway /escalator is located at one end of the platform for trains of the south. As well VRE may be using the same platform causing major congestion. It has been noted that weekend trains average lesser dwell at VRE times.

"IF" the expansion of WASH Union station is ever complete that will 2 additional access point for each platform then passenger congestion may be reduced allowing quicker dwell times. Have noted that a few days ago that one LD train made a 12 minute turn at WASH. Now the conditions at NHV and Albany are unknown.

[Backshophoss]

Nippon-Sharyo folded up their tent and left the US market(LOST Face due to Crush Test Failure).
Rotem left the US as well,will build the MBTA order in Japan.
DMU's is Anderson's pipe dream,not practical in real time!