Why shouldn’t Amtrak cater to people looking for a land cruise?

[Tadman]

Right, but he's not the arbiter of what a good cruise train is. The marketplace is. And the marketplace says a sleeper is not necessary. There are plenty of profitable trains like this. A few have sleepers, most don't. Very specifically, the ocean cruise lines are linked to the selections without sleeper trains such as Alaska and White Pass. How do you more accurately describe a good cruise train than ask the cruise lines?

[electricron]

That said, I've still maintained I think there's a market for a "Disney" train (or set of cars on one of the Silver Service) that starts in NYC and ends at Orlando. Oriented towards family service, you start your Disney experience when you board, with Disney themed rooms, a character dinner and breakfast, etc.
You get off in Orlando, and just like they do with the airlines, they handle all your baggage and drop you and your baggage off directly at your room with no intervention on your part.

Disney owns a cruise line that could do almost the same thing, but they don’t. Norwegian Cruise Line runs at least one cruise ship per week from New York City to Florida and the Bahamas, usually making a port of call for a day at Port Canaveral. Many passengers visit Disney World that day. But one day at Disney World just is not enough time, and Disney World does not have a cruise ship pier reachable from the Atlantic Ocean.

The Norwegian Bliss can carry 4,002 passengers every week on a round trip cruise from New York City. That would be 8,004 passengers the way Amtrak counts them, each way vs round trip. Averaging that subtotal over 7 days per week, that's up to 1,143 passengers per day. During the prime winter months, NCL runs two ships a week from New York City with the same passenger capacity, averaging up to 2,286 passengers per day.
Now compare that to the capacity of both Amtrak Silver Service trains. Averaging around 6 sleepers and 8 coaches per day each way, or 12 sleepers and 16 coaches each day both ways. Each sleeper can carry 30 passengers and each coach can carry 59 passengers.
12 x 30 = 360; 16 x 59 = 944; 360 + 944 = 1,304.
So Amtrak averages at most around 1,304 round trip passengers per day between New York City and Florida, at most because not every passengers is limited to these specific stations.

NCL is not the only cruise line offering weekly New York City to Florida cruises. They include multiple dining options aboard, from ice cream shacks, hamburger grill, cafeteria, continential dining, asian fusion, and steak houses. They include a casino, sport courts, live entertainment at theaters, swimming pools, spas, etc. Therefore I am going to suggest the cruise lines have easily cornered the luxury travel market between New York City and Florida.

Why compete with an inferior land cruise product where superior sea cruise products exist?

[Greg Moore]

Right, but he's not the arbiter of what a good cruise train is. The marketplace is. And the marketplace says a sleeper is not necessary. There are plenty of profitable trains like this. A few have sleepers, most don't. Very specifically, the ocean cruise lines are linked to the selections without sleeper trains such as Alaska and White Pass. How do you more accurately describe a good cruise train than ask the cruise lines?

Thank you for making my point. Unless you're basically saying, "any train that isn't Amtrak and isn't commuter is a land cruise." In which case very dinner train out there counts and makes this whole discussion a moot point.

Ocean Cruise lines are linked to trains w/o sleepers, because it's part of the entire CRUISE experience. Take away the cruise ship and those cruise trains would suddenly find their traffic plummeting and I would bet you'd find them suddenly unprofitable. You're basically trying to redefine "land cruise" to support your point. You can, but then it basically makes the term pointless.

[Tadman]

I'm not making your point at all. There are dinner trains, and there are high end cruise trains. Dinner trains are usually low-cost affairs using hodgepodge equipment and shoestring budget. The high end cruise trains I've mentioned are all associated with a big money concern.

From a business standpoint, you have diner trains as museums or quasi-museums (IE lifestyle business) or you have investor-grade businesses. The two generally don't cross over.

What's more, is the investor-grade land cruise trains continue to see new or heavily refurbished equipment that is the hallmark of a vibrant business. Rocky just got a bunch of new Stadler dome cars, White Pass is getting brand new diesels, and the cruise lines going to Alaska get new dome cars quite often. Even the Grand Canyon has seen a steady infusion of heavily rebuilt secondhand stuff, and is not the opeartion it was in 1995 or 2005.

This is not the concept of a dinner train - the Wisconsin Great Northern or North Shore Scenic are much better examples of that. They use lots of random stuff in various shades of repair, and no investor would buy into either business.

[bratkinson]

For any business to become a long term success, it's necessary to have a continuous 'market' for its products and/or services. That market also has to be robust enough to provide a steady stream of customers year round.

Perhaps the biggest sales draw for land cruise by rail is scenery. Rocky Mountain Rail Tours has incomparable scenery through the Canadian Rockies. The Canadian has similar scenery, but the CN route through the Rockies pales in comparison to the CP route, in my opinion. I rode both of them when VIA had both routes across the continent.

So why did endeavors like the various iterations of the American Orient Express or Ellis' Pullman Journeys go under? Lack of sufficient repeat interest by their customers. Was AOE a fantastic land cruise? Absolutely. Luxury equipment and great scenery contributed to its initial successes. But too high prices combined with irregular routes and schedules made it unattractive in the long run. And Pullman Journeys? Other than railfans with too much money, who in their right mind would think a 1950s roomette or bedroom and 1950s 'luxury' dining would be attractive to a 2000s crowd? Throw in rough track and it's easy to understand why there wasn't sufficient repeat business. For sake of comparison, compare a $1000/night hotel room with $1000/night trip Pullman Journeys? Unfortunately, it would seem Mr Ellis was more railfan than businessman, and it affected all his decisions.

Ocean cruises offer a full 'Disneyland' of options from gourmet food, great service, and onboard amenities from swimming pools to various music and stage acts. The only thing a land cruise can offer is scenery and service. Fail at either, and it's game over.

The first rule of real estate is 'location, locaion, location'. Unless a land cruise can offer fantastic scenery such as the Rockies or the Alaskan wilderness, WHY would someone with the money to spend consider a land cruise?

[lordsigma12345]

The current Amtrak administration seems interested in looking into some type of premium class on one or more of the western trains as stated in the five year service line plans. What it would look like and where it would operate and whether it will ever come to pass well just have to wait and see. The probable candidates for consideration of this would probably be the CZ, EB, and CS.

[Tadman]

...

So why did endeavors like the various iterations of the American Orient Express or Ellis' Pullman Journeys go under? Lack of sufficient repeat interest by their customers. ... For sake of comparison, compare a $1000/night hotel room with $1000/night trip Pullman Journeys? Unfortunately, it would seem Mr Ellis was more railfan than businessman, and it affected all his decisions.

Totally agreed. The Pullman cars that went to NOLA see no spectacular scenery, and for $1k/ night you can have quite a lot of fun in NOLA. That's a room at the Roosevelt and great dinner for two at Brennan's or Commander's.

[andegold]

If you're going to compare Silver Service to NCL at least be fair and logical about it. I don't think you can double count the passengers on NCL as they are not truly making a round trip. They are making a single one way trip that happens to have the same start and end points. however, for the sake of my next proposal let's leave the passenger count as is and call the sea cruise two one way trips. To properly compare the Silver Service a typical itinerary would be:

Board train at NYP late Sunday afternoon.
Arrive Orlando Monday morning.
Transfer to land accommodations at WDW Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
Transfer back to train Saturday morning.
Arrive NYP Sunday morning.

Now, I don't know if the above timing allows for enough time to turn the train at either end or not so don't kill the idea outright on that account - please adjust the timing, and, if necessary, number of trains required to service the new schedule.

The sea cruise is a destination in and unto itself with a one day excursion to WDW. The Land Cruise gives you an orientation, a warm up if you will of what's to come. It also gives the sponsor a captive audience to up-sell things like fast passes, season tickets, meal passes, time shares, etc. On the way home it's a chance to decompress.

Really, you could even compare this itinerary to flying to Miami and cruising the Eastern Caribbean from there. And don't forget that the train can make a trip every day. As much as we talk here about equipment constraints the sea cruise is limited to one trip a week. That gives the passenger a little added flexibility in terms of both time and budget when travelling by train.

[east point]

With cruise there is the same problem with trains . Adverse weather

[electricron]

With cruise there is the same problem with trains . Adverse weather

Adverse weather affects all types of transportation; in the air, on the land, and on the sea.

But let's review what the different types of transportation do with adverse weather.
Airlines cancel flights, rerouting planes already in the air. Amtrak cancel trains, but they sometimes stop train journeys short if there is a washout. Cruise lines usually reroute their ships to avoid bad weather, sometimes lengthening cruises already underway waiting for a pier spot to open up and cancelling cruises when the ship can not arrive at its departure port on time. They all offer compensation of one kind or another and refund only if they cancel the trip.

[David Benton]

Canada, Alaska , and NZ don't have a problem with subsidising high end tourist trains , because rail tourism is a major earner for the regions. Bringing in International visitors.
There is scope in the Western USA for this, but I don't think they would bring the % benefit to the local economy like it does in Canada. Plus the political system is different, with local congressmen not having the pull MPS do in the parliament system.
But I can see the potential , Denver -SLC, or parts of definitely world class. Other lines probably more have to tie into local attractions , such as the grand canyon.

[eolesen]

Unsubsidized, the Grand Canyon RR does great, but they own the infrastructure.

Not sure where else you do that in the US unless it's one of the Class 1's who are operating it.

[David Benton]

For the Grand canyon , i was thinking ex LA , attached sleepers to the SWC, handed over to the Grand canyon RR , to provide transport to the Canyon , and overnite stay there.

[Backshophoss]

Nice try,Williams is on the sub to Phoenix,Dont believe BNSF would allow "Drop & Hook" switching on the Transconn at Williams JCT.
OR do that at Flagstaff,believe a bus does meet the SW Chief at Flagstaff for GCRY passengers already.

[Tadman]

Nice try,Williams is on the sub to Phoenix,Dont believe BNSF would allow "Drop & Hook" switching on the Transconn at Williams JCT.
OR do that at Flagstaff,believe a bus does meet the SW Chief at Flagstaff for GCRY passengers already.

Yeah just last year the dropped the SWC same day connection, didnt' they? If it was making moeny, that wouldn't be a thing.

If there were a service growth for GCRY, it would probably be down that BNSF secondary to Phoenix, maybe the airport. But that triples a 2:15 ride into a almost 7 hour ride. You can't do an out-back in one day now. It would require some serious input from the stakeholders like the park, the state, the host, etc... But it would be a seamless ride to the park from the biggest airport.

As of right now, I bet GCRY thinks it's not worth the risk.