The future of sleepers

[Gilbert B Norman]

Mr. Norman, the NightJet 295 leaves Salzburg 22:00 arr Rome 09:22. Knowing you don't like couchettes, I'd suggest the Deluxe Single with shower and toilet. Fare EU$130 or less. Actually nicer than the best bedrooms Amtrak has

Mr. Morris, to the extent we can do so, by keeping the discussion relevant to proposals addressed here that Amtrak expand the scope of their Sleeper services, I still have to ask why is every Western Europe railway system running away from such, and the OBB rushing in?

What do they know that RENFE, SNCF, DB, SBB, and FS doesn't?

[Ridgefielder]

To attract business travelers, the train fare (including accommodations) has to be less than the airfare. Consider that now it is conceivable that a businessman could do a one day plane trip and return the same day. He has missed one day at his office. A sleeper trip would take at least 3 days round trip.

In theory this is possible. But in practice these days, especially flying out of NY, you can't exactly count on this. For example-- a colleague of mine had planned a same day out-and-back trip from NY to Columbus, OH. Arrived at LGA at 0800 for his 0930 flight. When they brought his plane back to the gate for the second time, at 1130 or so, and he realized he wouldn't get to Columbus until 1500, he scrapped the meeting. I pointed out that he could quite literally have driven straight from his home on Long Island to Columbus and gotten there quicker.

It's gotten bad enough that our salesmen-- who cover the entire country from NYC-- have essentially stopped doing same-day-turnaround trips for anything except Boston/Philly/DC. Which they cover by rail.

[mtuandrew]

The seats would be narrower than a Slumbercoach berth of course, and the walls probably thinner. This isn’t ideal but there’s only so much you can do about geometry. However, a single-story rather than split-level layout obviates the problems with staggered windows, ensuite stairs, and specialized car bodies.

Why keep trying to reinvent the wheel???? The 24/8 slumbercoach is by far the best design for economy sleepers. Tried and true.
Just add the biochem toilets and voila!!!

I agree! Maybe you can convince Amtrak to order more Viewliners from CAF, or to buy custom-designed Slumbercoaches from Stadler. My point is that I doubt that either will ever happen. I’m not optimistic that Amtrak will order any more sleepers after refreshing the Superliner and single-level fleets. That’s why I’m offering a workable alternative, one that is more familiar to modern travelers than the (admittedly more private and potentially more comfortable) Slumbercoach Roomette, and one that is much easier for Amtrak to install and test-market. Picture the AmPad/AmSnooze but better thought-out and executed.

[Tadman]

Mr. Stephens, somewhere I read (I think WSJ Middle Seat column) that the "lie flat" modules cost $100K each, and I'd dare say, in fact know so first hand, they are very "glitch prone".

I can see it now; those seats on Amtrak would soon be air conditioning on a Cuban train!

100 percent this. Absolutely.

One of the smartest things Amtrak has done is to leave the recliners on the sleeper beds manually operated. I've had a few trans-oceanic flights with bum pod seats and it's not fun to sleep upright. If Amtrak were to power their recliners, coach or sleeper, it would be a disaster.

... Is there really any reason that this "lukewarm" railfan should give up a night in a four star hotel to ride a NightJet to Rome and likely fly back - just to say "I did it"?

You can't even book one on a phone. So far as I can tell, having seen "up close and personal" some of NJ liveried cars, it looks like they put some "lipstick on the pig".

I'd do it. I've got a weekend in the UK coming up between meetings and there's no chance I'm going to sit around London stuffing my face. I'm doing one RT on the Night Riviera and another on the Cally. Haggis, here we come.

[David Benton]

Mr. Morris, I'm going over on Wednesday (Salzburg). Is there really any reason that this "lukewarm" railfan should give up a night in a four star hotel to ride a NightJet to Rome and likely fly back - just to say "I did it"?

You can't even book one on a phone. So far as I can tell, having seen "up close and personal" some of NJ liveried cars, it looks like they put some "lipstick on the pig".

But I'd wouldn't mind having some of the Gruner Veltliner the OBB Governors were passing around when they decided to go in deeper to a venture from which every other State railway in Continental Western Europe was bailing out.

Maybe over at Mr. Benton's Worldwide Forum we can discuss this further.

I would say Rome needs at least a couple of days to do it justice, there is so much history and culture there. My sister and her husband just spent a week there, and want to go back. they loved the HSR to the north (Milano , I think ) too.

[CarterB]

I will be in Germany from next week to end of Nov. Plan on taking NightJet Hamburg-Zurich, Hamburg-Munich and Hamburg-Vienna and on to Budapest.

[electricron]

I’d accounted for showers and restrooms already in my prior assessment - the number would still be 32, plus or minus 2 seats dependent on legroom and seat width. Perhaps as many as 36 seats should Amtrak omit a shower in these cars, which I wouldn’t recommend.

2+1 seating should satisfy a lot of overnight travelers, except Amtrak has 2+2 full business-class cars. That’s a little close for me to want to sleep next to a stranger.

I agree that berths are a better option than lay-flats, but again Amtrak is unlikely to order more sleepers for decades after the V-II order and the Superliner replacements. Lay-flats may be the most expedient solution right now.

Those 2+2 abreast all business coaches in Amtrak's fleet are about to be replaced with brand new cars (possibly built by Siemens). There is no reason why the new cars could not be configured as 2 +1 abreast. There is no reason why the old Amfleet full business class cars could have one seat per row removed to maintain consistency fleet wide. But obviously, Amtrak values the additional revenues coming from those additional 15 seats over our ability to sleep in them.
As long as the number of lay flat seats are limited to the same number or less than bunks in a sleeper - Amtrak is going to have to charge as much for ot as it does a bunk in a sleeper. Airlines can charge that much because few have floor to ceiling compartment walls, I doubt Amtrak could unless they eliminated all sleeper cars in favor of lay flat seating cars.

[SouthernRailway]

What's wrong with a couchette: a compartment with 4-6 seats in it that ends up with 4-6 bunks at night?

Quieter during the day and more comfortable at night, compared to open coach seating.

[Gilbert B Norman]

While there are some around here who are willing to have their travels more on the rough than I, I can't imagine Amtrak offering any kind of unrelated party sharing of sleeping accommodations. There is simply too much potential liability for doing so.

As for myself, I once did Couchette at age 48 when, during 1990, my Wagon-Lit Bedroom Madrid to Sevilla simply "wasn't". While in the end it turned out fine, with a Dutchman playing "terp" for me and two Spaniards and hand shakes all the way around, "thanks but no thanks" for an encore.

Finally, I got good news from United yesterday. For the flight to Munich tomorrow, the 777-200 aircraft will have the modular "Polaris" seating. Let's see if fact and promise are one in same.

[trainviews]

Mr. Norman, the NightJet 295 leaves Salzburg 22:00 arr Rome 09:22. Knowing you don't like couchettes, I'd suggest the Deluxe Single with shower and toilet. Fare EU$130 or less. Actually nicer than the best bedrooms Amtrak has

Mr. Morris, to the extent we can do so, by keeping the discussion relevant to proposals addressed here that Amtrak expand the scope of their Sleeper services, I still have to ask why is every Western Europe railway system running away from such, and the OBB rushing in?

What do they know that RENFE, SNCF, DB, SBB, and FS doesn't?

I have actually been thinking a bit of the same, but am changing my mind.

The past year or so has seen a small but pronounced trend change with stories about an uptick in train holidaying, more travel agencies offering them etc. The driver being both climate concerns and the sorry state of aviation. On top of that the international long distance trains seem to get a bit more political focus after being neglected for decades - again not least due to climate concerns. Sweden for one is talking seriously about ressurecting their regular sleeper trains to the continent and the debate is spilling over into Denmark.

Maybe ÖBB has seen this before the rest. Maybe they have just concluded that the others - especially DB - have been step-childing their sleeper services for so long that they essentially killed them. Or Maybe they have just been looking at a map, thinking they have the geography for a uniqe niche here.

I remain sceptical, but at least now positively so. The classic challenges of selling enough tickets outside the peak holiday seasons, timekeeping across borders, shifting cars between trains to get more direct lines, but waking people up in the process etc remain.

Being in Copenhagen, Denmark, I do miss our sleeper train south. I did not use it a lot but when I did it was really handy, especially to places where air service is poor, like Cologne, where I have used it for both leisure and work. It was simply the only way to get home after a work day and save another night at a hotel.

[Tadman]

It seems you are right and Europe has hit their sleeper low, and more countries are bringing back sleepers slowly. It will never be as it was in 1920 or even 1960, but it will be better than 2015.

As it stands here, that's far from reality, but that's because we're culturally and politically ok with 1-2 hour flights. That scenario is fast losing ground in the EU, which is what's driving the uptick in sleeper and passenger trains.

I personally can't tell if that cultural and political shift is reality or propaganda driven, but I prefer to take the train 4-6 hour over a 1-2 hour flight. I find those short flights are a lot of stand-up sit-down exercises and cooling heels in airport lounges. I can't get much done at O'hare and I can't get anything done on the Blue Line or Delta coach. I can get a lot done on the Hiawatha or Wolverine. If their wireless was reliable I could crush my work.

But then this goes back to my regional-over-LD thing lately. Why are we fighting so hard to preserve the Sunset Limited or Empire Builder when that very rolling stock and crews could be providing 3x or 4x to CHI-MSP or HOU-NOLA, perhaps including an overnight? Each trip is about 12 hours, so that's perfect 7p-7a ride. Those 12 hour sleepers sell out in the UK.

[mtuandrew]

The market is likely there for single-overnight sleepers. If that’s true, rather than cannibalizing the existing LDs for equipment Amtrak should be taking out a RRIF loan on new sleeper equipment. Keep the CAF line flowing while it’s available, and put out a call for bilevel equipment to become the Superliner III. Worst thing that happens is Amtrak doesn’t make enough to fully fund the loan and the US Government grudgingly makes up the difference. In fact a partial government share will probably have to be baked into the original proposal since Amtrak is unlikely to pay back the costs quickly. (As has been said, few people currently think to take the train overnight for business, and that perception might take a while to change.)

[Gilbert B Norman]

….Europe has hit their sleeper low, and more countries are bringing back sleepers slowly. It will never be as it was in 1920 or even 1960, but it will be better than 2015.

Well Mr. Dunville, 1960 was the first year I "went over". It was the "family rite of passage" that Disneyland has now become.

While essentially an auto trip, it did include overnight Paris Est to Stuttgart to pick up the Bennie. This was on the railroad operated Orient Express with Blue Wagon-Lits "stretching out of sight". While I knew not of any "on-board foreign intrigue", it definitely was comprised of people like my family simply getting from here to there.

Our car was set out at Stuttgart and could occupy it to 8A.

[Gilbert B Norman]

Meanwhile, back in the States, I foresee that Amtrak will be phasing out the LD's. The Board wants 'em gone, and the congressional support will gradually wane.

Even if "Amtrak Joe" is back in the WH - and in the Oval, I foresee no difference (nuff on that).

Looking overseas, it appears that in the UK, the model on State owned roads is Sleepers and one all purpose Food & Beverage car. In Western Continental Europe, where the OBB (Austria) has rushed in where the others have bailed out, limited F&B is provided in each car by the Attendant (Mr. Morris, I was not about to give up a four star hotel simply to ride an NJ to Rome and fly back to SZG/LOWS).

On the State owned NSW lines where there is Sleeper service from Sydney to Brisbane (arrival and vacate 3AM; Seat 61 has "words" about that) and Melbourne, there is one sleeper and one F&B car.

I think the "writing is on the wall".

So over here, I do not foresee any LD car replacement order. What I do foresee, as the Superliners become "Ocean View", is taking the 75 car V Sleep fleet and assigning them to all remaining LD trains along with an F&B that will likely become the fate of the V-Diners.

Coaches will simply be LD configured of whatever the Short Distance replacement car will be. The "mistake" made with the A-Il's that they were not readily convertible to SD cars will not be repested.

That is what I foresee for a service for which the need is ever lessening - if in fact it was ever during the Amtrak era.

[mtuandrew]

The concept behind the Viewliners is great - a true multipurpose passenger car platform that maximizes space - but I wish Amtrak hadn’t gold-plated the current batch. Imagine if Amtrak had fielded the full fleet of V-II diners well prior to Anderson’s term; we might have had enough demand to justify keeping some form of prepared food for all passengers. We could have had a trial of Slumbercoach modules too, if the V-II sleepers had shipped much earlier.