The future of sleepers

[eolesen]

Sure, you can squeeze more bunks, but it’s ultimately a car that’s only useful on a handful of routes. A car not moving and not occupied isn’t making money. At some point, car utilization is going to start to be looked at by the guys controlling the purse.

A lie-flat car could easily be used on a corridor or a LD train. Selling a sleeper during the day or on a corridor train? Not likely.

[David Benton]

Ron, I think what you are missing is that we are saying a lot of people may prefer a open plan lay flat bed to a pokey roomette. I can see myself in that category. I do think there needs to be showers provided though, even in coach on long distance trains it would be nice.

[mtuandrew]

I did the math on it too, Ron, and you’re right that open berths, single Slumbercoach rooms, and double roomettes offer more capacity per car. I recall coming up with 40 berths in a Slumbercoach - more like 36 today with a larger bathroom/shower - and closer to 32 for a lie-flat sleeper. Three-high Euro-style compartments or six-high dormitory-style rooms offer considerably more capacity, more like 50 people, especially in a Viewliner whose extra interior height allows such an arrangement.

The main reasons I come back to the lie-flat semi-enclosed sleeper seats are:
a) ease of installation in coaches, meaning a quick boost in sleeper capacity by repurposing A-Is and Horizons after Siemens coaches arrive
b) possible labor savings, if fewer crew members are needed for coaches versus sleepers
c) no need to have crew convert your seat to a bed, or to wait on your seatmate to want to sleep, and
d) equally attractive for daylight business use as for night, since they are just big, comfortable seats with room for your electronics.

I don’t think Amtrak will get the go-ahead for another order of Viewliners, and if they do, the car design will be 40 years out of date. They’ll need to get creative.

[SouthernRailway]

To each his (or her) own.

I prefer a private room over an open car, day or night.

[electricron]

I did the math on it too, Ron, and you’re right that open berths, single Slumbercoach rooms, and double roomettes offer more capacity per car. I recall coming up with 40 berths in a Slumbercoach - more like 36 today with a larger bathroom/shower - and closer to 32 for a lie-flat sleeper. Three-high Euro-style compartments or six-high dormitory-style rooms offer considerably more capacity, more like 50 people, especially in a Viewliner whose extra interior height allows such an arrangement.

The main reasons I come back to the lie-flat semi-enclosed sleeper seats are:
a) ease of installation in coaches, meaning a quick boost in sleeper capacity by repurposing A-Is and Horizons after Siemens coaches arrive
b) possible labor savings, if fewer crew members are needed for coaches versus sleepers
c) no need to have crew convert your seat to a bed, or to wait on your seatmate to want to sleep, and
d) equally attractive for daylight business use as for night, since they are just big, comfortable seats with room for your electronics.

I don’t think Amtrak will get the go-ahead for another order of Viewliners, and if they do, the car design will be 40 years out of date. They’ll need to get creative.

You done the math and agree with the number of lay flat seats as compared to bunks and roomettes. It's obvious that 60+ coach seats will far out number "your" 32 lay flat seats, a number I believe will be smaller when you include rest rooms and a shower room. Using the same number of rows of seats, but using three abreast vs four seats abreast, that 60+ coach seats turns into 45+ business class seats. It's a regional service used on relatively short distances, a seat that reclines far enough allows significantly more business class seats than the lay flat seating scheme, and allows for far cheaper fares. Fares that fall in between a traditional coach and roomette while still remaining revenue neutral.

Amtrak already has business class seats on two types of Amfleet I cars. There is a reason why airlines charge roomette like fares for lay flat seats, which by the way jetliners do not have roomettes on them anyways. Why should Amtrak change from a scheme that already works to one that will fail?

[mtuandrew]

I’d accounted for showers and restrooms already in my prior assessment - the number would still be 32, plus or minus 2 seats dependent on legroom and seat width. Perhaps as many as 36 seats should Amtrak omit a shower in these cars, which I wouldn’t recommend.

2+1 seating should satisfy a lot of overnight travelers, except Amtrak has 2+2 full business-class cars. That’s a little close for me to want to sleep next to a stranger.

I agree that berths are a better option than lay-flats, but again Amtrak is unlikely to order more sleepers for decades after the V-II order and the Superliner replacements. Lay-flats may be the most expedient solution right now.

[Tadman]

It's worth noting that most remaining European sleepers are not the same as ours. Ours are more like land cruise trains, while theirs are 8-hour trains where one boards well after dinner and arrives at breakfast. This might be a workable concept on the Detroit or Montreal trains, but it has to work financially as well. That means the train must have convertible seats to beds and make a day run, so the equipment is used a bit more than once a day. One thing you can't argue with at Amtrak -they sure use their equipment well.

What has to happen next for this to be viable is to do a 1 year pilot. Most discussions of business sleepers act as if it's an all-or-nothing issue. Instead, a pilot project with some easy parameters (to ensure success) would be best. It must have endpoint cities with good economy, bad traffic, transit friendly, and hopefully easy to run a train between (IE no crew change, friendly host, decent track). The NEC is probably your best bet, but perhaps LAX/SFO or PDX/SEA/VAN as well. Maybe MIA-ORL-JAX with a sleeper dropped/picked in ORL.'

I do like this concept and I've got a few rides on the Night Riviera and Cally coming up, but it would be useful to prove it as a pilot first.

[Gilbert B Norman]

I agree that berths are a better option than lay-flats, but again Amtrak is unlikely to order more sleepers for decades after the V-II order and the Superliner replacements. Lay-flats may be the most expedient solution right now.

Mr. Stephens, somewhere I read (I think WSJ Middle Seat column) that the "lie flat" modules cost $100K each, and I'd dare say, in fact know so first hand, they are very "glitch prone".

I can see it now; those seats on Amtrak would soon be air conditioning on a Cuban train!

[CarterB]

Getting this back onto topic, many European sleeper cars remaining in service; like Nightjet, Railjet, etc.; have a minimum of three bunks per compartment and up to six bunks per compartment. Your bunk is sold, numbered, and assigned individually. You may or may not have others outside your party in your compartment. It's their way to try to reduce costs. I doubt Amtrak would choose to follow the European scheme soon, but a conversation about it would be far more appropriate than one about lay flat chairs in this thread, imho.

I have been going to Europe yearly for past 30 years. Use the DB and other lines quite often. The "Couchette or Liegewagen" mentioned above is a quite acceptable alternative to sitting up all night in coach. And for the 4 bed compartment (NEVER use the 6 bed one) it is quite inexpensive, running around EU$ 30 per person. I have NEVER had a problem with the fellow travelers, and often find I am the only person in the compartment.
The "bunks" are very similar in size and comfort to an Amtrak bedroom. You do sleep fully clothed, but have a pillow and a blanket.
From the OBB NightJet site:
"Equipment and services are equal to the standard couchette compartments:
Blanket, sheets and pillow with fresh cover on every berth
Bathrooms and toilets are located in the coach
Compartments can be locked from the inside
"Viennese breakfast" (coffee/tea, 1 roll, butter, jam) and mineral water are included
In your compartment, you will also find a food menu containing beverages and snacks the train team will gladly serve you against payment."
If couchette is not to your liking, the private bedrooms are also quite reasonable, starting around EU$ 60

[Gilbert B Norman]

Mr. Morris, I'm going over on Wednesday (Salzburg). Is there really any reason that this "lukewarm" railfan should give up a night in a four star hotel to ride a NightJet to Rome and likely fly back - just to say "I did it"?

You can't even book one on a phone. So far as I can tell, having seen "up close and personal" some of NJ liveried cars, it looks like they put some "lipstick on the pig".

But I'd wouldn't mind having some of the Gruner Veltliner the OBB Governors were passing around when they decided to go in deeper to a venture from which every other State railway in Continental Western Europe was bailing out.

Maybe over at Mr. Benton's Worldwide Forum we can discuss this further.

[bostontrainguy]

I’d accounted for showers and restrooms already in my prior assessment - the number would still be 32, plus or minus 2 seats dependent on legroom and seat width. Perhaps as many as 36 seats should Amtrak omit a shower in these cars, which I wouldn’t recommend.

2+1 seating should satisfy a lot of overnight travelers, except Amtrak has 2+2 full business-class cars. That’s a little close for me to want to sleep next to a stranger.

I agree that berths are a better option than lay-flats, but again Amtrak is unlikely to order more sleepers for decades after the V-II order and the Superliner replacements. Lay-flats may be the most expedient solution right now.

I did this exercise a while ago when we were discussing the Delta One Mini-Suites compared to an Amtrak Viewliner sleeper:

Viewliner Delta 1.pdf

(76.54 KiB) Downloaded 63 times

[CarterB]

Mr. Morris, I'm going over on Wednesday (Salzburg). Is there really any reason that this "lukewarm" railfan should give up a night in a four star hotel to ride a NightJet to Rome and likely fly back - just to say "I did it"?

You can't even book one on a phone. So far as I can tell, having seen "up close and personal" some of NJ liveried cars, it looks like they put some "lipstick on the pig".

But I'd wouldn't mind having some of the Gruner Veltliner the OBB Governors were passing around when they decided to go in deeper to a venture from which every other State railway in Continental Western Europe was bailing out.

Maybe over at Mr. Benton's Worldwide Forum we can discuss this further.

Mr. Norman, the NightJet 295 leaves Salzburg 22:00 arr Rome 09:22. Knowing you don't like couchettes, I'd suggest the Deluxe Single with shower and toilet. Fare EU$130 or less. Actually nicer than the best bedrooms Amtrak has.
Includes:
Welcome drink
Welcome bag
freshly made bed incl. blanket, sheets and pillow
towels and toiletry (among others soap, slippers and earplugs)
wake-up service at the specified time
à la carte breakfast with hot beverage (free refill included)

[mtuandrew]

I did this exercise a while ago when we were discussing the Delta One Mini-Suites for an Amtrak sleeper:
Viewliner Delta 1.pdf

Thanks, btg. I’d found similar results using a reverse herringbone seat arrangement - I think I prefer the mini-suites though.

Ron, this is a situation where I think we could all have our cake and eat it too. Mr. btg has shown that a standard passenger car can accommodate 34 individual mini-suites, which just about matches the 34-36 a Viewliner Slumbercoach could hold. You and Mr. SRY expressed a strong preference for enclosed cabins; since Amtrak doesn’t have the weight restrictions of Delta, the “flying cubicles” could easily be extended to the ceiling with solid or translucent panels. Conventional panel-over-steel construction, no data connection or touchscreen, and a seat with many fewer degrees of movement (picturing a lay-flat seat adaptation of Amtrak’s LD seating, of which I haven’t heard many complaints) would also vastly reduce the $100,000 price tag Mr. Norman references.

The seats would be narrower than a Slumbercoach berth of course, and the walls probably thinner. This isn’t ideal but there’s only so much you can do about geometry. However, a single-story rather than split-level layout obviates the problems with staggered windows, ensuite stairs, and specialized car bodies.

[SouthernRailway]

I am taking a Viewliner sleeping car for a mid-day trip along the Northeast Corridor soon, on the Silver Starve.

I was surprised to see that it doesn't show up in Amtrak's online timetables. It was just offered when I was booking the trip.

It was about the same price as a business-class seat on a Northeast Regional. If business people knew about this option, I'd think that private rooms along the Northeast Corridor would sell out. Way better than having someone on a cell phone yap while you're trying to get work done.

[CarterB]

The seats would be narrower than a Slumbercoach berth of course, and the walls probably thinner. This isn’t ideal but there’s only so much you can do about geometry. However, a single-story rather than split-level layout obviates the problems with staggered windows, ensuite stairs, and specialized car bodies.

Why keep trying to reinvent the wheel???? The 24/8 slumbercoach is by far the best design for economy sleepers. Tried and true.
Just add the biochem toilets and voila!!!