Another try at Acela non-stop service

[Suburban Station]

Any speculation on why it has the same running time as the prior NYP-PHL-WAS?

Have things gotten slower despite the catenary upgrade?
Did the old one have trouble staying on schedule?
Is the slot slightly more congested than the previous time slot?
Did they pick a slot that would be indifferent between stopping and not stopping at PHL?

If the old one could stop at PHL and still have the same running time between New York and Washington, it is very strange that the new one does not stop at Philadelphia.

Dominating local PHL traffic is a lucrative business.

there's absolutely no way a non-stop saves enough time to offset the revenue loss of not stopping in philadelphia, that is especially true of the northbound which has an extremely attractive 430 PM departure time. the only explanation is that Amtrak is willing to forego the revenue for snob appeal or that DC based management has not run the numbers.

[NY&LB]

Everyone: Interesting topic about nonstop NEC express trains since the late 1960s...

I recall an express "Metroliner Service" pair of weekday trains run back in the 1980s:

WAS and NCR to NYP -and- NYP to NCR and WAS.

The Metroliner Service promotion mention was "Two Hours and 59 Civilized Minutes"

Does anyone remember the dates these trains ran and why they were discontinued?

MACTRAXX

READ MY 5th post on this thread which provides the details of the non-stop Metroliner

NY&LB: NO...This Metroliner Service train pair I recall was from the mid to late 1980s along with the schedule
time promotion. The 1969 PC Metroliner nonstop runs that you refer to were an earlier service that predated
Amtrak operating with the then-new Metroliner MU cars...MACTRAXX

O.K. Here we go! Nothing in the 1980's Non Stop
October 29, 1989 train #222 WAS 4:40 PM ar NYP 7:17 PM
Train # 203 NYP 7:30 AM ar WAS 10:07 AM

April 1st, 1990 they added a Metropark stop for the NON STOP, we have train # 222 ex Sa/Su Depart WAS 4:50 PM ar, Metropark NJ 7:07 PM Ar NYP 7:25 called "NON STOP EXPRESS"
The west bound departed NYP at 6:50 AM; MET at 7:16 arriving WAS at 9:25 AM

October 29 1990 they made big adjustments by in the AM trip to NYP by adding New Carrollton, we have train # 202 ex Sa/Su Depart WAS 6:50 AM, New Carrollton 6:59 AM, NYP 9:20 AM and train # 222 is now the 5:00 PM local Depart WAS 5:00 PM Ar NYP 7:59 PM and then on to New Haven!
TWO "NON STOPS" west bound # 203 departed NYP at 6:50 AM; MET at 7:13 arriving WAS at 9:20 AM and Train 223 NYP 4:30 PM, Baltimore 6:32PM, New Carrollton 6:54 PM and finally WAS at 7:05 PM still called "NON STOP EXPRESS".

April 7, 1991 was the same

Oct 27, 1991:
we have train # 202 ex Sa/Su Depart WAS 6:50 AM, New Carrollton 6:59 AM, NYP 9:25 AM and train # 222 remained the 5:00 PM local Depart WAS 5:00 PM Ar NYP 8:00 PM and then on to New Haven!
west bound # 203 departed NYP at 6:50 AM; MET at 7:15; Baltimore at 8:59 am arriving WAS at 9:30 AM and Train 223 NYP 4:30 PM, Baltimore 6:36PM, New Carrollton 6:59 PM and finally WAS at 7:10 PM still called "NON STOP EXPRESS".

Apr 5, 1992 brought more changes
#202 now called Express Metroliner Depart WAS 6:50 AM, New Carrollton 6:59 AM, NYP 9:25 AM
# 223 Express Metroliner depart NYP 4:30 PM, Baltimore 6:35 PM, New Cartollton 6:58 PM and WAS at 7:10 PM
and a Friday only evening train
#139 Capital Hill Express NYP 7:30 PM. New Carrollton 10:06 PM and WAS 10:21PM


Next TT I have is Oct 31, 1993
#202 now called Express Metroliner Depart WAS 6:50 AM, New Carrollton 6:59 AM, NYP 9:25 AM
#223 Express Metroliner depart NYP 4:30 PM, Baltimore 6:30 PM, New Carrollton 7:03 PM and WAS at 7:14 PM
#139 Capital Hill Express NYP 7:25 PM. Baltimore 9:50 PM New Carrollton 10:15 PM and WAS 10:30 PM

Same May 1st, 1994

October 30, 1994 saw only the following:
NEW Fr only #198 Gotham Express Depart WAS 7:30 PM, New Carrollton 7:39 PM, Baltimore 8:03 PM express to NYP arrive at 10:42 PM
#139 Capital Hill Express NYP 7:25 PM. Baltimore 9:50 PM New Carrollton 10:15 PM and WAS 10:30 PM
no more Mo-Fr express service

[MACTRAXX]

NY&LB: Thanks for the timetable references and clarifications!
The early 1990s turns out when Amtrak actually implemented nonstop WAS-NCR-NYP service...

I found this 1980s era ad with the mention of "2 hours and 59 Civilized Minutes" in Amtrak's history archive:
https://history.amtrak.com/archives/metroliner-ad-1980s

I once had access to an archive of Amtrak System or National timetables that is no longer available that I
would have used to further study these Metroliner services...MACTRAXX

[n2cbo]

At the time of the nonstop Metroliner (this is mentioned somewhere many pages back) the City of Baltimore dusted off an ordinance adopted at the time the PRR completed the connection between the former Philadelphia, Wilmington & Baltimore and the Baltimore & Potomac, making operation through Baltimore possible (1873?), requiring all passenger trains to stop in Baltimore, and brought legal action against PC attempting to require the Metroliner to stop there. PC added intermediate stops before any proceedings took place, rendering the question moot; I wonder whether that ordinance is still in place--ordinances don't get repealed very often--and whether Baltimore would have any inclination to try the same thing again.
(Since no safety considerations are involved I don't suppose a city ordinance could trump Federal regulation, but that needn't prevent politicians from generating some publicity--"we're in there pitching for you, folks!")

When Amtrak was running Mertoliner Service with the experimental X-2000 trainset, (If I remember correctly) It Started in NYP and made Baltimore & Washington ONLY. I always wondered why it made Baltimore since there were very few passengers getting off, and the train ran almost completely full. I guess this is why...

[NY&LB]

MAXTRAXX:
I actually have most every AMTRAK National and NEC public TT.
If you ever need any specific research, let me know.

[penncenter]

On a proposed WAS/NYP run, what are the odds of working with NS(?) on using the highline in Phila to bypass 30th St? My understanding is that there are speed restrictions from Arsenal through Zoo, and that obviously costs time.

I think the highline is down to one track, but what are the odds of working with NS on this? Help them upgrade the track, or even installing the second track. I bet you could save at least 10 minutes, if not 15 minutes using the highline instead of transiting through lower 30th, and all the curves through the Penn Coach yard, the switches leading to and through Zoo. The highline cuts out all that mess. If the train is not going to stop there, why deal with it if Amtrak can work with NS on a better alternative?

You want the fastest, most premium service? Here's 15 minutes right there.

[n2cbo]

If I remember correctly, last time I went through Philadelphia, The catenary wires were removed from the High Line.

[penncenter]

You know...you are right about that.

But surely the cat was removed because it was not in good repair. Cheaper to just not repair/replace/improve it at that point. Anyone know what it would cost to "restring" the cat over those couple miles?

[ExCon90]

It was removed because Conrail discontinued all electrified freight operation (at Amtrak's invitation). There would be a crossover movement at PHIL, requiring an enforced speed restriction starting at least back at Signal 58, just north of Darby; poking along at 45 for ~5 miles would cancel out any possible time saving. In addition, a track connection around the ZOO complex would have to be restored, also involving a diverging speed, while routing via Track 3 LL northbound and 5 southbound would result I'm pretty sure in clear signal indications all the way, and while speed restrictions would no doubt apply through the station itself, I'd think they would be less burdensome than Approach Medium on the cab signals.

[rcthompson04]

It was removed because Conrail discontinued all electrified freight operation (at Amtrak's invitation). There would be a crossover movement at PHIL, requiring an enforced speed restriction starting at least back at Signal 58, just north of Darby; poking along at 45 for ~5 miles would cancel out any possible time saving. In addition, a track connection around the ZOO complex would have to be restored, also involving a diverging speed, while routing via Track 3 LL northbound and 5 southbound would result I'm pretty sure in clear signal indications all the way, and while speed restrictions would no doubt apply through the station itself, I'd think they would be less burdensome than Approach Medium on the cab signals.

It seems like that would cost a lot of money for a marginal benefit (2 trains a day going slightly faster). You would probably be better off figuring out a way to clean up the various movements elsewhere. I guess I could go along with it for purely selfish reasons if the Overbrook to Zoo situation was cleaned up on the Main Line.

[NIMBYkiller]

[/quote]

there's absolutely no way a non-stop saves enough time to offset the revenue loss of not stopping in philadelphia, that is especially true of the northbound which has an extremely attractive 430 PM departure time. the only explanation is that Amtrak is willing to forego the revenue for snob appeal or that DC based management has not run the numbers.
[/quote]

That is, of course, unless Amtrak believes they will actually fill the entire train with express riders, in which case this is a huge win. Should be interesting to see the results after a few months.

[Suburban Station]

That is, of course, unless Amtrak believes they will actually fill the entire train with express riders, in which case this is a huge win. Should be interesting to see the results after a few months.

Maybe they believe that but I suspect it's a belief rather one supported by any educated guess or modeling. I suspect the 430 PM will do ok because it's a good slot. The time savings is minimal. .most routes would kill to have a metro area of six million at its midpoint but Amtrak brass has always tried to depress demand in philly, charging the highest fares in the system.
We shall see

[penncenter]

30th St riders could easily catch a regular Acela...right?

[rcthompson04]

30th St riders could easily catch a regular Acela...right?

We are down to less than 10 minutes of savings between 30th Street and NYP and less than 15 between 30th Street and Washington.

[n2cbo]

30th St riders could easily catch a regular Acela...right?

We are down to less than 10 minutes of savings between 30th Street and NYP and less than 15 between 30th Street and Washington.

That adds up to 25 minutes. Pretty good time savings in my book...