Fred Frailey Column- "It's Time"

[Gilbert B Norman]

...to plop or get off the pot.

From Hyatt Regency Atlanta (waiting on late Dinner guests - so what's new):

Here is the open content column appearing at Mr. Frailey's blog;

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey ... mtrak.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's my response:

Mr. Frailey, your final comment rings the best. It's time to recognize that the LD (Interregionals if you wish) were to have been gone starting during '76. The '79 Carter Cuts started the process, but waylaided until tje '96 Clinton Cuts. But all since then have been the '04 Bush "prunings".

It's time to accept "the party's over". These LD's pay the Class One's some token payment hardly compensatory to the opportunity cost the Class I has lost owing to the train they cannot run. And further, as

Precision Railroading becomes more accepted, that Amtrak will cause more interference than previously.

The so called "Essential Service" cry by the advocacy community can easily be satisfied with busses at far less cost. There is not, unlike Canada, a single Amtrak station inaccessible by highway.

All told, time to order up the Adios drumheads and allow Amtrak to concentrate their efforts where rail transportation can be meaningful - the Corridors.

[mackdave]

But who the #%!! wants to ride a bus that kind of distance. We're supposed to be a civilized society, not everything is "for profit". It's a public service.

mackdave

[JoeG]

Most of Mr Frailey's points should be common sense but Amtrak, especially the version run by Mr Anderson, seems lacking in any kind of sense.
I don't know what the fate of LDs should be, but I would like some kind of honest reckoning of what they actually cost.

The Class I's may have to be paid more to run Amtrak trains, but, Mr Norman, opportunity cost only applies if the railroad is mostly full. Would the Zephyr between Denver and Salt Lake inconvenience any freight trains? I don't know but I doubt it.

i believe Amtrak should be made into a regular government agency. Then we won't have to argue about profits so much. If there are losses we have to decide if the Amtrak service that loses money is worthy of the subsidy. But of course we subsidize lots of things, such as cotton and sugar. We see lots of discussions about whether trains should be subsidized but somehow very few about cotton and sugar. Why might that be?

[Gilbert B Norman]

But who the #%!! wants to ride a bus that kind of distance.

From Hyatt Atlanta Perimeter Summit, Brookhaven---

Mr. Mackdave, we have had our "Feddybuck flings with things", such as Moonwalks, Space shuttles, and Concordes, and decided there was not enough cost benefit to continue them; so they're all gone. "Thanks for the memories".

Would you catch me on an X-country bus? Oh maybe if a .45 was pointed at me. I suggest the busses simply to placate the advocacy community who talk incessantly about the "can't drives, won't flys" and who need to get from Mt. Pleasant to Hastings for whatever reason.

The Class I's may have to be paid more to run Amtrak trains, but, Mr Norman, opportunity cost only applies if the railroad is mostly full. Would the Zephyr between Denver and Salt Lake inconvenience any freight trains? I don't know but I doubt it.

Mr. Grossman, concur with your thought regarding opportunity costs. But with an LD, if one segment of the route is lightly used, what's to say another segment has heavy traffic volume.

Now I have yet to have a full explanation of Precision Railroading, but somehow, as more roads implement such on their properties, Amtrak could well be considered opposing traffic and treated accordingly.

[mtuandrew]

I respect Mr. Frailey as being one of the most well-informed and respected rail journalists, especially as regards current and past topics, but feel that someone with a few more miles left on the warranty ought to be a leading voice on the future of LDs. That isn’t dissimilar to my opinion on Mr. Harrison’s Opus, Precision Scheduled Railroading.

Considering Amtrak is pushing 50 years of operating an “unsustainable” mix of NEC, corridor regional, and long-distance trains, maybe we need to redefine what unsustainable means and for whom.

[george matthews]

In the 1960s during a British university vacation I spent nearly three months in the US. As I had a Greyhound ticket for the whole US I didn't ride in any trains. I travelled across the US from New York to California and back. Now that I am older I would not recommend it - and modern Greyhound buses are less comfortable, since they have squeezed more people in and reduced the seat space. But long distance trains are useful for long journeys. And potentially they save on CO2 emissions, which even the US needs to take more seriously in the near future. I think the US needs a modern high speed rail network, with electrified trains travelling much faster than its present legacy system. The current Amtrak system has not developed in the way European trains have. They need more speed - much more - and passenger trains need to have more priority over slow freights. Speed them up and passengers will come.

[David Benton]

I'm on there as "solar" .
One misconception there is , that the money used for long distance trains is somehow holding back corridors and high speed rail. Nope.
$ 500 million a year or so wouldn't go far, I think we saw that with the Obama funds , and what ending up been achieved. Nothing to say the money saved would still be available for corridors. And nothing to say the railroads would trade the long distance slots for corridor slots.

[electricron]

In the 1960s during a British university vacation I spent nearly three months in the US. As I had a Greyhound ticket for the whole US I didn't ride in any trains. I travelled across the US from New York to California and back. Now that I am older I would not recommend it - and modern Greyhound buses are less comfortable, since they have squeezed more people in and reduced the seat space. But long distance trains are useful for long journeys. And potentially they save on CO2 emissions, which even the US needs to take more seriously in the near future. I think the US needs a modern high speed rail network, with electrified trains travelling much faster than its present legacy system. The current Amtrak system has not developed in the way European trains have. They need more speed - much more - and passenger trains need to have more priority over slow freights. Speed them up and passengers will come.

Norway has a lot of electric passenger trains running on mostly single track lines. The Bergen Line between Bergen to Oslo is 306 miles in length, with an elapse time of 6 and a half hours averaging 47 mph.
Math = 306 / 6.5 = 47.077
You can find dozens of youtube videos (at 4K quality) with driver views of this line, many up to 2 to 3 hours in length , breaking the line up in half or thirds. Of all the videos I've seen and I've watched many, there is one thing missing that you will see on most American rail lines - no freight trains running on them.

And when you consider that most of the rail lines in America are owned by freight railroad companies, that's a significant thing to point out.
In Finland, most goods (freight) is transported by:
Over 80% by highways, less than 20% by rail, sea, and air.
https://www.ntp.dep.no/English/_attachm ... 57d6e7e058" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Each year 270 million metric tons, possibly an additional 20 million tons could be taken up by rail, sea, and air - if all this plan's proposals were implemented. Not likely.

In the USA, freight modal share is measured by USDOT in long tons, not metric tons.
Total FY 2015 was 18 Billion tons
Highways moved 10.7 Billion tons (59%)
Pipelines moved 3.3 Billion tons (18%)
Rail moved 1.6 Billion tons (9%)
Mail (multiple modes) moved 1.3 Billion tons (7%)
Water moved 0.884 Billion tons (5%)
Air moved 10 Million tons (0.05%)
Numbers and percentages rounded
https://www.statista.com/statistics/184 ... -share-by-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tonnage/
I believe that the chart used was for domestic freight shipments only..

You will see freight trains on most passenger train videos running on tracks owned by the freight railroad companies from America for a video that's 2 to 3 hours in length - without edits.

[Suburban Station]

Most of Mr Frailey's points should be common sense but Amtrak, especially the version run by Mr Anderson, seems lacking in any kind of sense.
I don't know what the fate of LDs should be, but I would like some kind of honest reckoning of what they actually cost.

The Class I's may have to be paid more to run Amtrak trains, but, Mr Norman, opportunity cost only applies if the railroad is mostly full. Would the Zephyr between Denver and Salt Lake inconvenience any freight trains? I don't know but I doubt it.

i believe Amtrak should be made into a regular government agency. Then we won't have to argue about profits so much. If there are losses we have to decide if the Amtrak service that loses money is worthy of the subsidy. But of course we subsidize lots of things, such as cotton and sugar. We see lots of discussions about whether trains should be subsidized but somehow very few about cotton and sugar. Why might that be?

Theres no need to make amtrak a regular government agency since theres nothing thatwill be fixed by doing so and more likely, things will be broken. Profits arent amtraks problem, political meddling is. Sugar and cotton subsidies are a complete waste of money.
More money for capital investment is required regardless of operator...the national network capital budget probably needs to be ten times the nec budget but really, even double would make a difference in a few years. Money to add back capacity, fix chicago, raise speeds..these benefit corridors and long hauls

[JoeBas]

You can find dozens of youtube videos (at 4K quality) with driver views of this line, many up to 2 to 3 hours in length , breaking the line up in half or thirds. Of all the videos I've seen and I've watched many, there is one thing missing that you will see on most American rail lines - no freight trains running on them.

Freight on the Bergensbanen.

https://live.staticflickr.com/video/190 ... LCJ2IjoxfQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Greg Moore]

But who the #%!! wants to ride a bus that kind of distance.

From Hyatt Atlanta Perimeter Summit, Brookhaven---

Mr. Mackdave, we have had our "Feddybuck flings with things", such as Moonwalks, Space shuttles, and Concordes, and decided there was not enough cost benefit to continue them; so they're all gone. "Thanks for the memories".

And I have to say, that's a major shame.
We're spending more and more on defense, but I have to wonder what exactly are we defending any more.

A nation that can't have "nice things" isn't a country worth having in my opinion.

(Though, Concordes were never a US Federal budge item).

[mtuandrew]

Not the Concorde, but supposed to be better: meet the Boeing 2707. Much like the flying car, it’s an idea that proved technically possible but socially unnecessary.

It bothers me deeply that the Federal government and states haven’t ever acted to secure a New York/Washington-Chicago passenger line. The 1976 formation of Conrail would have been the perfect time to carve out a route from PRR, NYC, Erie, and their subsidiary companies’ excess routes, even if such were a single track of a three or four track main or a long-term leasehold on a non-Conrail-company’s road. That and WAS-ATL (which has never been available for purchase) are the two single long distance routes that should really be concatenated corridors and functioning as a true intermediate speed, high capacity form of transportation between buses and airplanes.

[R36 Combine Coach]

Mr. Frailey, your final comment rings the best. It's time to recognize that the LD (Interregionals if you wish) were to have been gone starting during '76.

The so called "Essential Service" cry by the advocacy community can easily be satisfied with busses at far less cost. There is not, unlike Canada, a single Amtrak station inaccessible by highway.

Even the Builder and Starlight never cross into the wilderness as much as the White River RDC, Canadian, Skeena, the Hudson Bay Line or the Ontario Northland. Any towns, hamlets or villages in the U.S. accessible only by rail? Perhaps some in Alaska?

i believe Amtrak should be made into a regular government agency. Then we won't have to argue about profits so much. If there are losses we have to decide if the Amtrak service that loses money is worthy of the subsidy.

I could see a quasi-independent agency, with self-supporting financing via bonds, much like MTA, PANYNJ or TBTA.

[eolesen]

We're spending more and more on defense, but I have to wonder what exactly are we defending any more.

A nation that can't have "nice things" isn't a country worth having in my opinion.

Military spending is like homeowners insurance... you never need it until you need it, and if you haven't kept it up to date, you pay dearly for it. You can safely argue the same about transportation infrastructure.

The only way you'll ever see more money for infrastructure & transportation is to cut spending somewhere else. If you look at what Congress spends for "discretionary" purposes, you'll see the Feds pay more for energy, environment, education and housing programs than they do on transportation, yet there are taxes assessed specifically to fund transportation. Arguably, the Feds shouldn't be involved with education or housing to the degree they are. That should be the States responsibility, and I suspect private industry is able to invest in energy without needing the government's help....

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/up ... nacted.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are ways to fund rail. We just don't push hard enough on questioning the other areas where spending is out of line.

[David Benton]

Well there's basic house insurance, then there's insurance with all the frills , or insurance without ringing around for the best deal.
I'm thinking there is a real need to get a real HSR line running in the USA, even if it is a one hour ride, to show the concept. Then people will buy in to it . Hopefully the new "Mini California HSR " will at least achieve that .