Diesels on the Keystone Corridor

[mcgrath618]

Hello all,
I have some questions regarding the use of Genesis Locomotives on the Keystone Corridor:
1. Which Amtrak trains use them?
2. Do any trains switch power at Harrisburg? If so, which ones?
3. Are the Gens allowed to hit 110 in the appropriate sections?

Thanks!

[andrewjw]

1. Of all trains which run between Philly and Harrisburg, only the Pennsylvanian (42/43) uses a diesel. It uses it for the whole way from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh - the engine change is in Philly along with the reversal of direction, and no cab car is used. All Keystone trains run with ACS-64 electrics and Metroliner cab cars all the way from Philly to NYC. The Pennsylvanian has, from time to time, also used a Dash-8, but this is very unusual.
2. No, none.
3. I do not know. But my uninformed guess is that they are, since some P40DCs were upgraded to 110mph maximum speed and these locomotives have been used on the Pennsylvanian.

Between the mid-1990s and October 2006, Genesis diesel locomotives were used for all services between Philadelphia and Harrisburg due to a shortage of electric locomotives. During this time, all trains switched engines in Philadelphia and no cab cars were used.

[MACTRAXX]

I will add this to the discussion on PHL-HAR diesel use:

1-Yes. The Pennsylvanian #42 and #43 is the one train currently running under the catenary
between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. (#44 and #45 on weekend days)

2-The engine change at Harrisburg for the Broadway Limited (Trains #41 and #40) was ended
with one of the two schedule changes during 1980. #41 and #40 last ran NYP-CHI in 1995.
The Pennsylvanian has always changed locomotives at PHL from when the train began service
in the early 1980s.

3-The upgrade to high speed segments PHL-HAR route dates from more recent years after the
line was upgraded with Penndot funds. Speeds were lower before new concrete ties and welded
rail were installed on much of the route.

Back during the 1990s into the first half of the 2000s the line used diesels for a majority of the
Keystone train service. AEM7 electrics were used occasionally (I believe that the average electric motor use was once a week for one or more round trips PHL-HAR) when they were available and
to keep the contact wire from oxidizing from not being used. Amtrak considered removing catenary
west of the SEPTA commuter area (Downingtown/Thorndale) to Harrisburg at one point.

Running the 600 series PHL-HAR trains with diesels added time to schedules making the route
less competitive with driving especially compared to the speedy service provided with MU cars
up to the early/middle 1980s. The aging Capitoliner (former Metroliner) MU cars - which would
eventually need towing with a locomotive along with short Amfleet or Heritage coach trains -
would provide service with lengthened schedules. During those years ridership dropped and
would eventually recover with improved and more reliable electrified Keystone service.

MACTRAXX

[The EGE]

Some history:

Silverliners were used from the PRR era (Amtrak did not take over the service until 1972, incidentally) until around 1978, when Amtrak rented Jersey Arrows for the Clockers and Silverliner Service. The Arrows were returned to NJ beginning in late 1980; the Metroliners (branded as Capitol Liners) - which a decade before had been determined unsuitable for Harrisburg service - took over in 1981. As the Capitol Liners began to increasingly fail in the mid 80s, they were pulled by AEM-7 locomotives (and sometimes E60s) on many runs, with the pantographs up for hotel power. Locomotives were assigned for all runs starting January 25, 1988 (which included ten minutes added to the schedule due to the slower E60s).

But, the wreck of the Night Owl on January 29 took two toasters out of service, and Amtrak assigned F40s with no Suburban Station service on February 1. Although Amtrak had wanted to fully dieselize the line for several years, E60s were re-added within a few days, though 30th Street remained the terminal. Some of the E60s and Capitol Liners were modified for push-pull operation in 1988, with plans to convert them to HEP. By mid-1988, the line had a motley assortment of electric and diesel power used; modified Capitol Liners were used as cab cars

Unfortunately, my primary source for this was published in 1988, so what happened after that isn't clear. I'm not sure when Amfleets replaced the Capitol Liners as coaches, nor when electric service ended entirely.

[mcgrath618]

Some history:

Silverliners were used from the PRR era (Amtrak did not take over the service until 1972, incidentally) until around 1978, when Amtrak rented Jersey Arrows for the Clockers and Silverliner Service. The Arrows were returned to NJ beginning in late 1980; the Metroliners (branded as Capitol Liners) - which a decade before had been determined unsuitable for Harrisburg service - took over in 1981. As the Capitol Liners began to increasingly fail in the mid 80s, they were pulled by AEM-7 locomotives (and sometimes E60s) on many runs, with the pantographs up for hotel power. Locomotives were assigned for all runs starting January 25, 1988 (which included ten minutes added to the schedule due to the slower E60s).

But, the wreck of the Night Owl on January 29 took two toasters out of service, and Amtrak assigned F40s with no Suburban Station service on February 1. Although Amtrak had wanted to fully dieselize the line for several years, E60s were re-added within a few days, though 30th Street remained the terminal. Some of the E60s and Capitol Liners were modified for push-pull operation in 1988, with plans to convert them to HEP. By mid-1988, the line had a motley assortment of electric and diesel power used; modified Capitol Liners were used as cab cars

Unfortunately, my primary source for this was published in 1988, so what happened after that isn't clear. I'm not sure when Amfleets replaced the Capitol Liners as coaches, nor when electric service ended entirely.

Thanks for that history lesson, it was super interesting. Weird that I've never seen a picture of these Capitol Liners.

Is there any specific reason why Amtrak hasn't returned to Suburban, now that diesels are gone?

[andrewjw]

Thanks for that history lesson, it was super interesting. Weird that I've never seen a picture of these Capitol Liners.

Is there any specific reason why Amtrak hasn't returned to Suburban, now that diesels are gone?

Amtrak no longer runs to Suburban because
* they do not dispatch 30th UL or Suburban, so they would be subject to delays due to SEPTA
* the center of gravity of Philadelphia is shifting west over time, so the penalty of serving only as fast east as 30th St is lessening over time
* the Keystone now runs to New York. When it ran to Suburban, it terminated there. Turning at Suburban instead of 30th would add time to through trips and prevent through customers from stepping out to purchase food at 30th St.

Here is an early photo of a Metroliner in use as a cab car for a diesel train. The presence of a cab car on a diesel train indicates this predated the extension to New York since then engine changes would have occurred. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=3588829

[MACTRAXX]

Everyone: The picture above at Leaman Place looks like car #827 which was placed into service
as a cab car after removing the pantograph. #827 would also be used in short haul service in the
Midwest out of Chicago. This first conversion being successful made Amtrak decide to convert more
of these former MU cars to cab cars for other routes such as the Los Angeles-San Diego service.

Passenger Train Journal once had a feature article about the Capitoliner/Metroliner cars and their
downgrade off of NEC service to the Philadelphia-Harrisburg line during the 1980s. PTJ sometimes
had other news articles and pictures of these cars in service before and after some were converted
to cab cars. These cars were extraordinarily heavy for MU cars (about 175,000 pounds) and had
solid Budd-built bodies. These cab cars have now seen around 50 years of service.

[BuddR32]

If this is a topic elsewhere, I apologize. What where the reliability issues with the metroliners?
Glad they're still around, like the R32s in the NYC Subway 50+ years!

[Acela150]

1-Yes. The Pennsylvanian #42 and #43 is the one train currently running under the catenary
between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. (#44 and #45 on weekend days)
MACTRAXX

There hasn't been a Train #45 in a long time. And about 5 years for #44. It's only 42 and 43.

[MACTRAXX]

1-Yes. The Pennsylvanian #42 and #43 is the one train currently running under the catenary
between Philadelphia and Harrisburg. (#44 and #45 on weekend days)
MACTRAXX

There hasn't been a Train #45 in a long time. And about 5 years for #44. It's only 42 and 43.

A150: Yes-#44 was the weekend (or Sunday) eastbound run of the Pennsylvanian. #45 has not
run in many years. I should have mentioned this on an historical standpoint.
MACTRAXX

[ExCon90]

If this is a topic elsewhere, I apologize. What where the reliability issues with the metroliners?
Glad they're still around, like the R32s in the NYC Subway 50+ years!

The main problem from the outset was that the cars were pressed into service without adequate testing--nothing like them in the US at the time--because Stuart Saunders wanted the service to begin before Lyndon Johnson left office. As a result, whenever a fault was found, instead of being fixed on the prototype (there was none) it had to be retrofitted 49 times on equipment already in service. For many years every metroliner trip had a technician riding along to troubleshoot. Before departure an announcement would be made over the PA system: "Metro Blue." I never found out what it signified--maybe it meant OK, ready to go or something.

[BuddR32]

If this is a topic elsewhere, I apologize. What where the reliability issues with the metroliners?
Glad they're still around, like the R32s in the NYC Subway 50+ years!

The main problem from the outset was that the cars were pressed into service without adequate testing--nothing like them in the US at the time--because Stuart Saunders wanted the service to begin before Lyndon Johnson left office. As a result, whenever a fault was found, instead of being fixed on the prototype (there was none) it had to be retrofitted 49 times on equipment already in service. For many years every metroliner trip had a technician riding along to troubleshoot. Before departure an announcement would be made over the PA system: "Metro Blue." I never found out what it signified--maybe it meant OK, ready to go or something.

Thanks! Politics again. It struck me as odd that they were lemons. Budd built cars for years, without failures, and GE built propulsion systems for years. Often times together! But like the LI M1s there was a lot of new technology and without testing and correcting like you said, its going to be a lifetime of guessing what will work, but at that point without manufacturer support, Makes sense,

[R36 Combine Coach]

The main problem from the outset was that the cars were pressed into service without adequate testing--nothing like them in the US at the time--because Stuart Saunders wanted the service to begin before Lyndon Johnson left office. As a result, whenever a fault was found, instead of being fixed on the prototype (there was none) it had to be retrofitted 49 times on equipment already in service. For many years every metroliner trip had a technician riding along to troubleshoot. Before departure an announcement would be made over the PA system: "Metro Blue." I never found out what it signified--maybe it meant OK, ready to go or something.

Thanks! Politics again. It struck me as odd that they were lemons. Budd built cars for years, without failures, and GE built propulsion systems for years. Often times together!

The Westinghouse Metroliners (800-830) had the bulk of electrical problems - so bad they were actually assembled and delivered first in late '67 but not accepted until spring/summer/fall '69. The first few cars were tested in late 1967 though. The GEs were somewhat better, but also delayed and the first trains from January 1969 were all GE. The last 11 Westinghouse cars (820-830) were originally for high speed Harrisburg service, rejected by SEPTA and not accepted for service on the NEC until 1972.

[jonnhrr]

I remember taking my 2 boys on a train ride from Ardmore to Lancaster around 1992. The line was still mostly Diesel but there was one Harrisburg train named "the Big Apple" which originated in New York and therefore had an AEM-7 pulling it. Later in early 2001 before we moved out of PA we took movies at Gap PA and I recall everything was still Diesel powered at that time, including the Three Rivers which I believe changed from Electric to Diesel in Philadelphia.

[twropr]

There have been a few instances when the ACS-64 motor continued with PENNSYLVANIAN #43 to Harrisburg due to a shortage of operable diesels at Phila. There is usually a protect diesel at HAR, which would be used to power #43 beyond. The engine change today takes MUCH longer than the 5-8 minutes that it used to take in the PRR days. Also the protect diesel has been used to rescue electric trains.
Andy