Amtrak Long Distance Trains - Sections (split from Hoosier State

[John_Perkowski]

does Amtrak even know how to run a train by sections anymore?

[justalurker66]

Are you suggesting a 2nd Cardinal section all the way between Chicago and Beech Grove?
It would save switching in Indianapolis, but a second section means extra crews and would likely be rejected by CSX. If CSX allowed it to run I expect there would be additional charges.
CSX might allow Amtrak to use their Hoosier State slots for non-passenger extras (since they are already on the schedule) but I would not count on getting a "second section" cheaply.
It is much easier to make the Cardinal longer and deal with the switching issue in Indianapolis.

[John_Perkowski]

No. I’m asking if anywhere on Amtrak’s System, they have the knowledge and the skill to run, for example, 2-4. Second section of Train 4, the SW Chief EB.

Sure looks to me like a lost art by the buffoons at 60 Mass.

[lstone19]

What "knowledge and skill" does it take to run a second section? If you're thinking green flags and both running on the same timetable authority, those days are long past. I'm not aware of any place Amtrak trains run on timetable authority. It's either signal authority (CTC or double-track current of traffic) or track warrants (or whatever variant name a particular railroad uses). While schedules govern what time a passenger train can leave a station, there is almost nothing to distinguish a scheduled passenger train from an extra in how they get their authority to operate so should a second section be operated, it would just operate as an extra.

[justalurker66]

Are you suggesting ...

No. I’m asking if anywhere on Amtrak’s System, they have the knowledge and the skill to run, for example, 2-4. Second section of Train 4, the SW Chief EB.

I'm sure they could run two trains instead of one if the host railroads allowed "second sections" and it made economic sense to run them.
But there is no need to split the Cardinal from any hospital cars and engines it is carrying between Chicago and Indianapolis. It would just be a waste of money.

Sure looks to me like a lost art by the buffoons at 60 Mass.

If you're just here to attack Amtrak there is a long list of sins that they have actually committed. How about the lost art of serving hot food? Or the lost art of providing through sleeper car service in Chicago? Through sleepers probably fit in to the "too expensive for limited benefit" category - but reduction in other services turn Amtrak into less valuable service offering.

[east point]

There are only 3 trains that would need second sections during peak travel times. This is of course ignoring the present lack of needed extra equipment/
1. Silver Meteor It is almost to the point that it could support almost year around even if present added cars PHL or WASH
2. LSL due to length limits out of NYP. One section could combine with BOS section.
3. Crescent NEC to Atlanta only. .
Ones that might need extra in future
4. Empire builder especially CHI <> MSP
5. Cal Z especially CHI <> Den.

[mtuandrew]

Tangentially related, what’s the purpose of a second section in an era where two or three P42s (depending on terrain) could pull and supply HEP for 25 cars? Hospital trains would run under different rules than active passenger trains, wouldn’t it?

[JimBoylan]

I can recall, but not recently, Thanksgiving Advance sections, like Train 1065 "Advance Night Owl" with commuter cars running 10 minutes in advance of Train 65 "Night Owl" for part of its run on the NorthEast Corridor. Is this the kind of knowledge that Amtrak has forgotten?

[gokeefe]

Is this the kind of knowledge that Amtrak has forgotten?

It's the kind they still very much have. I also forgot to mention the Empire Builder and the Lake Shore Limited in my answer. Both of these trains operate in sections on a daily basis. It's obviously not the same type of second section as Col. Perkowski was inquiring about but there are overlaps in the operational capabilities of such.

[mtuandrew]

Mr. O’Keefe: kind of, but there hasn’t been an Advance Empire Builder that I’ve ever seen in my rail-watching life. Technically both of those trains are the opposite of operation in sections - they’re really two trains operated as one, not one operated as two.

Since we are out of the timetable + train order era (except maybe on LIRR?), what good is it to run a second or third section? It mostly seems like a good way to rear-end a previous section. An extra would be much safer, since it would be independently governed rather than dependent on the prior train.

If you mean calling it an “advance section” for customer convenience, that’s fine but it would still operate under Extra rules i.e. controlled or track-warranted independently.

[justalurker66]

Mr. O’Keefe: kind of, but there hasn’t been an Advance Empire Builder that I’ve ever seen in my rail-watching life. Technically both of those trains are the opposite of operation in sections - they’re really two trains operated as one, not one operated as two.

Perhaps you need to better define what you mean by "sections". In my experience "sections" would be when one train was separated into two (or more) sections and operate under the same train order and timetable authority. The first section(s) would fly green flags or lights to let other traffic know that another section was following. The other traffic would be under orders to "hold at X location" until Y train passed. If Y passed but it was flying green flags/lights the other traffic would hold position and wait for the final section. In essence they were running two or more physical trains as if they were one logical train.

Which is the same as the splits suggested ... taking one train and splitting it in to multiple sections that were platform length trains. Running an extra on the same schedule as the regular train. I expect that it would be easier to run one longer train and either make people walk through the train or make multiple stops. (The Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited would multiple stop at Elkhart before the new platform was built.) Easier on the host railroad to route one train as well as on Amtrak to manage ticketing.

[mtuandrew]

Justalurker: That’s exactly how I define it (and how the official definition is, I believe.)

[SouthernRailway]

Would a typical passenger even care if her train is an extra, a second section, an advance section or something else as long as the schedule, amenities and price suit?

[Rockingham Racer]

Probably not. Amtrak used to run advance sections of trains during Christmas. I am not sure if they were even in the public timetable. I was on one one year, and the train made only the major stops to NYC.

[ExCon90]

What "knowledge and skill" does it take to run a second section? If you're thinking green flags and both running on the same timetable authority, those days are long past. I'm not aware of any place Amtrak trains run on timetable authority. It's either signal authority (CTC or double-track current of traffic) or track warrants (or whatever variant name a particular railroad uses). While schedules govern what time a passenger train can leave a station, there is almost nothing to distinguish a scheduled passenger train from an extra in how they get their authority to operate so should a second section be operated, it would just operate as an extra.

Exactly. Whatever the terminology, the essential element here is that running two physical trains instead of one uses up another slot of track capacity, and that's what's going to concern a Class I.