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  • Amtrak v. NS - Twitterwar

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1503592  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Wall Street Journal reports that a "Twitterwar" is raging between Amtrak and the Norfolk Southern. Here is a Fair Use quotation:
Amtrak, the national passenger railroad, has taken to using a Twitter handle, @AmtrakAlerts, to tell riders when trains are delayed, including when they are stuck because of freights.

That prompted a lawyer for Norfolk Southern Corp. to send a demand late last month to Amtrak: stop tweeting about our trains, or the railroad “will be forced to consider further action.
Apparently. NS, to whom Amtrak awarded a grade of "F" for the handling of its trains, objects to Amreak naming NS as the party at fault when trains, such as The Crescent, are badly delayed. Apparently, Amtrak has been doing just that in "Tweets".
 #1503605  by east point
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote: Apparently. NS, to whom Amtrak awarded a grade of "F" for the handling of its trains, objects to Amreak naming NS as the party at fault when trains, such as The Crescent, are badly delayed. Apparently, Amtrak has been doing just that in "Tweets".
Guess the heat is starting to gel! Do you have a link to NS so we can pass it around?
 #1503606  by Backshophoss
 
Nothing good is the "normal" result of a Amtrak says- NS says war of words on social media.
Figure on a person or 2 catching flak from the boss on both sides of this.
And lead to regrets on both sides to boot!
 #1503613  by STrRedWolf
 
Does Amtrak have enough physical proof to demonstrate NS causing all the issues and thus earning the "F"? I have a feeling this is an overreacting lawyer on NS's side.

This also goes into if train breakdowns, signal issues, et all are reported to the FTA or FRA. If NS is proven terrible on *that* data, things get even worse for NS.

It's only going to waste money in a lawsuit that's going to look bad on NS... and may end up putting NS under court control in the extreme case.
 #1503615  by kitchin
 
The state of Virginia has put hundreds of millions of dollars into CSX and NS improvements. Extending from LYH to RNK over the low pass in the Blue Ridge Mountains was a lot of work, and celebrated by passenger rail advocates. But making the next stop, to Christiansburg and Virginia Tech was quashed by Norfolk Southern - which meanwhile moved its corporate headquarters out of state to Atlanta. (Probably for the airport!) VT is building a campus in Arlington to match Amazon HQ2. That would have been a one-seat ride, Christiansburg to Arlington, about 5:30 in time. (Admittedly a little high, and it would still be a 20 minute bus ride from VT to the station site already chosen on the VT side of Christiansburg. Currently there's an Ambus direct from VT to RNK, taking 1:30 including layover.)

The state fund in Virginia is called the Intercity Passenger Rail Operating and Capital Fund. I don't know how it compares with North Carolina funding. The joint corridor work from Raleigh to Richmond, with new high-speed rail across the border, seems on track.

While Virginia Tech to Roanoke to Lynchburg to Charlottesville to Arlington seems dinky compared to the main NE Corridor through Richmond, it's proportionately higher in innovation, etc. In other words, the primary two research universities in the state. In any case, ticket sales are reportedly good on all routes in Virginia, new and old.
 #1503707  by R36 Combine Coach
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:Wall Street Journal reports that a "Twitterwar" is raging between Amtrak and Norfolk Southern
Amtrak, the national passenger railroad, has taken to using a Twitter handle, @AmtrakAlerts, to tell riders when trains are delayed, including when they are stuck because of freights.

That prompted a lawyer for Norfolk Southern Corp. to send a demand late last month to Amtrak: stop tweeting about our trains, or the railroad “will be forced to consider further action.
At most, possible slander/libel suit by NS?
 #1503711  by electricron
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote:At most, possible slander/libel suit by NS?
No! At least NS dispatchers could insure that all Amtrak trains on NS tracks are extremely late by making them slow down and then the wait signal for every single meet.
 #1503717  by Tadman
 
The article does cite that NS feels Amtrak is responsible for some initial delays, which then cascade because a late train usually gets later. I don't have any experience dispatching, but from my LD travels, it seems like the worst thing that can happen is for a train to leave the originating point late.

This could turn into a war of words. It's also an opportunity to look at originating terminal procedures and maintenance processes to see if they can improve departure and equipment failure issues.
 #1503723  by Arborwayfan
 
Amtrak passenger train priority is an interesting question if you think about it from the perspective of someone who enjoys and supports rail transportation in general.

First, I'm pretty sure that the Amtrak law simply says that Amtrak trains are to be given priority at meets and junctions. I don't think it actually says "the host railroad has to dispatch its own trains in such a way that Amtrak's trains can always accelerate to the speed limit and stay there and keep schedules based on doing that all the time"* or "Amtrak trains can never go in the hole except to meet another Amtrak train". That's a matter for interpretation through regulations. I have seen an argument that since Amtrak trains average faster than freight trains on pretty much every route, they are getting priority, even though they are often late and even though they often have to wait. I didn't really like the argument, but I saw the point of view.

*Yes, most schedules are padded, but the padding is typically at the end of the run, maybe also before one or two major intermediate stations, and most of the segments are scheduled pretty ambitiously. Professional rail transportation planners have studied this and reported on it.

Next, it seems like Amtrak doesn't actually pay the railroads enough to make it worth the railroads' while to slow down their own trains to let Amtrak trains keep ambitious their schedules. Are the railroads' various privileges (subsidies and land grants 150 years ago, eminent domain to assemble some ROWs, laws that pretty much blame drivers and trespassers for crossing and pedestrian accidents without requiring expensive fences or serious gates as in some other countries, etc.) big enough to justify forcing the railroads to let Amtrak trains have the railroad without full compensation for the costs? Or to maintain the extra capacity needed to let Amtrak trains keep their schedules? In a case like Chi-STL it may look clear that the host railroad has taken a lot of free improvements and not delivered its part of the bargain, but that only applies to a few routes.

I tend to side with Amtrak, but these are complicated questions. The facts, the law, the goals, and the calculations are all in dispute.

And while I was writing Tadman made a great point. If Amtrak's equipment was in better shape, if trains weren't held for connecting trains, etc., Amtrak would be more predictable for the host railroads and there would be fewer delays. I often think Amtrak needs a few more qualified crews in some places, or better ways of predicting when they are needed. When a train is running late and the crew goes dead (like at Aurora, IL, once) and then you wait a couple hours for the crew, that seems like either there's no simple computer program watching all the crews' hours and calling relief crews in time OR there simply aren't any relief crews available. Maybe some kind of deal with host railroads to let Amtrak get a few local crews qualified on Amtrak equipment to help out when needed (of course they'd have to be on the extra board and that would mean constantly qualifying new crews so maybe it just wouldn't work, but it might be worth investigating). Maybe some work to get people on and off faster at intermediate stops -- e.g. does it really make sense to fill two cars for Champaign Urbana, or would it make more sense to spread those people over four cars and thus give them 2x as many doors to get on and off through? (A question to consider if they ever do reserved seats.) Just basically whatever Amtrak could do to eliminate its share of the delays would give it a better position to blame the railroads for the rest, but would also make Amtrak a better tenant/customer for the railroads. Of course a lot of this comes back to money -- a state of really good repair would reduce delays. So would automatic doors (on some routes, anyway)
 #1503724  by Arborwayfan
 
One further thought about Amtrak's own delays: At least at downstate Illinois stations in the last few years, they seem to check tickets on the platform a lot, even when the train comes in late. Sometimes this is clever and helpful -- one conductor had noticed the size of each group and noticed which cars had spaces for them at Effingham -- but sometimes it just seems to slow things down. They didn't used to do this; they don't do it in the parts of Europe I've travelled in. Is it a security thing, or a fear of being disciplined if someone gets on without a ticket and then can't pay or the train is full? It seems like the regulations or procedures could be rewritten to get people on as fast as possible, and not blame the conductors if someone gets on without a ticket at Effingham and can't pay for their ride to Champaign etc etc. Could save a minute or two per station.
 #1503725  by Tadman
 
Arborwayfan wrote:And while I was writing Tadman made a great point. If Amtrak's equipment was in better shape, if trains weren't held for connecting trains, etc., Amtrak would be more predictable for the host railroads and there would be fewer delays. I often think Amtrak needs a few more qualified crews in some places,
Perhaps a month ago, I suggested that Amtrak use freight engines and crews like it once did. We had a pretty vibrant debate about the out of pocket costs, but my bigger point was the incentive for the freight carriers to provide ample crews and maintained engines was greater than it was for Amtrak.

Imagine you're the guy at NOLA for NS, and you are responsible for getting the Crescent out of town in a way that doesn't delay some hotshot intermodal or perishables train. You'd hustle so you don't lose your job. There would be a rested crew and an engine or two that is in great shape.

Over at Amtrak, nobody gets in trouble if the Gennies crap out. It's accepted as a way of life that something will crap out and no recourse.
 #1503746  by mtuandrew
 
It would make sense for Amtrak to approach Norf... er, Atlanta with the olive branch of, “until we get our Chargers’ bugs sorted and Gennies rebuilt, can we call you to pull our crapped-out trains to our next locomotive base? We’re willing to pay intermodal rate plus 5%, and waive our rights to challenge your on-time performance for each train you pull.” NS would probably offer intermodal + 50% for calling a crew off the extra board, and they could settle on intermodal + 20-30%. Better to have a train moving without HEP than not moving without HEP.

Otherwise, this smells like a concerted effort to get the on-time percentage portion of PRIIA removed via legal action, which isn’t a far-fetched possibility.
 #1503878  by R&DB
 
I have no idea if this is related, but over the past few days I noticed the Cresent #19 has been closer to on-time to Atlanta.
 #1503890  by byte
 
Arborwayfan wrote:One further thought about Amtrak's own delays: At least at downstate Illinois stations in the last few years, they seem to check tickets on the platform a lot, even when the train comes in late. Sometimes this is clever and helpful -- one conductor had noticed the size of each group and noticed which cars had spaces for them at Effingham -- but sometimes it just seems to slow things down. They didn't used to do this; they don't do it in the parts of Europe I've travelled in. Is it a security thing, or a fear of being disciplined if someone gets on without a ticket and then can't pay or the train is full? It seems like the regulations or procedures could be rewritten to get people on as fast as possible, and not blame the conductors if someone gets on without a ticket at Effingham and can't pay for their ride to Champaign etc etc. Could save a minute or two per station.
Disappointing to hear that is still the practice on the 39X trains. While attending UIUC ten-ish years ago, I remember regular ~20 minute stops (especially on 392 on Friday nights) so the streetcar-style boarding could occur. Can't speak for the Chicago - Quincy route, but this does not presently occur on the Lincoln Service. At the busier stops: Train pulls in, two doors open for coach (and maybe a third for Business Class), and people are asked where they're going at platform level so they can be directed to a certain car (i.e., up to the left, or to the right). That's it, and tickets are scanned on board.

(Is that awful automatic door in Champaign still in place? You know, the one which holds the entire mass of boarding passengers in the waiting room until a switch is flipped - usually as the train is pulling into the platform - and the doors spring to life and ~then~ people can cross the bridge across the busway, only to be held at the other end until a conductor unhooks the crowd-control rope...)
 #1503896  by Tadman
 
byte wrote:
Arborwayfan wrote:One further thought about Amtrak's own delays: At least at downstate Illinois stations in the last few years, they seem to check tickets on the platform a lot, ...
Disappointing to hear that is still the practice on the 39X trains. While attending UIUC ten-ish years ago, I remember regular ~20 minute stops (especially on 392 on Friday nights) so the streetcar-style boarding could occur....

(Is that awful automatic door in Champaign still in place? You know, the one which holds the entire mass of boarding passengers in the waiting room until a switch is flipped...
Stuff like this relates back to the "do they even ride the trains???" discussion we had a few months ago. It is maddeningly frustrating to ride the trains and watch people be utterly counterproductive, and clearly each conductor has his/her own way of doing things that seems to also have quite a few degrees of variance in proportion to the moonphase and strength of the yen.

How can the organization have any credibility with NS when it's clear their own house is so far out of whack? How much do you want to bet when the annual grades for freight hosts come out, and Amtrak gives NS and "F", the NS managers have a good chuckle because they know Amtrak is a F-minus customer that doesn't pay their way, breaks down on the main, and publicly lambasts them.