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  • Amtrak Expansion Plan

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1534380  by east point
 
rcthompson04 wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:46 am The easiest place to expand “high speed” trains eta in the short term is the Keystone Service. All the “express” stations except Middletown have been converted to high level platforms and Middletown is in the process of having that done now. Ardmore is under construction for high level platforms and Coatesville, Downingtown and Parkesburg are in various stages of serious planning for high level platforms.
Until a week ago felt the same. Now after reading the asset plan found out that the route state of good repair ( SOGR ) is much worse than the rest of the NEC. A quick example is the CAT. Amtrak is asking for $30M for FY 2021 just to repair the CAT Zoo to Paoli . Evidently the CAT is not great, poles are too far apart, Transmission towers need replacement, track will not support faster than 110 MPH, etc.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... Y21-25.pdf
 #1534385  by rcthompson04
 
east point wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:46 pm
rcthompson04 wrote: Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:46 am The easiest place to expand “high speed” trains eta in the short term is the Keystone Service. All the “express” stations except Middletown have been converted to high level platforms and Middletown is in the process of having that done now. Ardmore is under construction for high level platforms and Coatesville, Downingtown and Parkesburg are in various stages of serious planning for high level platforms.
Until a week ago felt the same. Now after reading the asset plan found out that the route state of good repair ( SOGR ) is much worse than the rest of the NEC. A quick example is the CAT. Amtrak is asking for $30M for FY 2021 just to repair the CAT Zoo to Paoli . Evidently the CAT is not great, poles are too far apart, Transmission towers need replacement, track will not support faster than 110 MPH, etc.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/proj ... Y21-25.pdf
The Zoo to Paoli replacement has been on the agenda for years due to the Zoo to Paoli system being from 1915. In addition the power supply still runs on the PRR Trenton Cutoff to the PRR Schuylkill Branch. This project is to replace the entire system between Zoo and Paoli and also move the power supply to the line.

I think the bigger issue is whether PennDOT would pay for the costs of higher speed trainsets.

West of Paoli the system resembles the rest of the PRR Northeast Corridor.
 #1539829  by trainhq
 
The last post on this was prior to Coronavirus. I think all of us know that the situation has now changed dramatically. All Amtrak expansion plans will obviously be shelved for now, but even when service is resumed, they will all likely be overshadowed by the problem of keeping existing service running. I dunno, probably at least a year as we see how all this shakes out before we can even get any idea as
to what is going to happen. Don't think anybody will even look at anything before then.
 #1539841  by Pensyfan19
 
trainhq wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:35 am The last post on this was prior to Coronavirus. I think all of us know that the situation has now changed dramatically. All Amtrak expansion plans will obviously be shelved for now, but even when service is resumed, they will all likely be overshadowed by the problem of keeping existing service running. I dunno, probably at least a year as we see how all this shakes out before we can even get any idea as
to what is going to happen. Don't think anybody will even look at anything before then.
Talk of Amtrak proposals will most likely be on hold until the railroads start to recover from their losses, but the one billion dollars given to Amtrak and the proposed four trillion dollars to be distributed to commuter railroads in the infrastructure stimulus will definitely help them. I would give it about a year or two the most until there are increased talks of passenger rail expansion. However, also keep in mind that despite the pandemic, numerous rail projects are being funded and starting construction as we speak (or read this :wink: ). some examples would include Brightline/Virgin Trains USA securing bonds from California to start construction of their service from Vegas to southern California, and Connecticut approving funding for new rail coaches.
 #1539907  by west point
 
I support the many day train possibilities but there are some major problems.
1. The freight RRs like to do maintenance on their track during the daytime. Some examples. The Crescent take a 5 week 4 day a week cancellation south of Atlanta every year. Right now the Palmetto is also taking a 4 day a week cancellation.
2. A major way to mitigate #1 is for 2 main tracks at least 25 feet apart. However that is not realistic for most eastern RR with tight ROWs. So 2 Main tracks have to be closer which require work forces to stop work while a train passes. So may take a large amount of 2nd main tracks to be built beside single track locations. If ATL - Meridian was all 2 main tracks then multiple trains would be possible. The same for the Palmetto south of Richmond. It even take 2 main tracks for New Haven - Springfield with the Hartford north single track with sidings causing problems. CHI - MSP needs 2 main tracks with a 3rd in Illinois.
3. For tracks with a large amount of trains it may take 3 main tracks in places especially at station locations or even 4 main tracks for locations such as Washington - Richmond. Another example will be the CHI - NY state needing 3 main tracks.
4. If multiple day trains run paying extra to a freight RR to do maintenance at night might be a mitigation.
 #1539916  by njtmnrrbuff
 
More of the Springfield Line north of Windsor needs to be double track as well as at Hartford Station and even to the south. It would be great if the siding that stretches a little north of Parkville Interlocking was reactivated for passenger use. Sadly until the Hartford Station is moved, there won't be any single track at Hartford Station. Let's hope that the viaduct at Hartford Station doesn't collapse either. It would be nice if the Connecticut River Bridge was replaced and have one that can have a second track.
 #1539942  by gokeefe
 
trainhq wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:35 am All Amtrak expansion plans will obviously be shelved for now, but even when service is resumed, they will all likely be overshadowed by the problem of keeping existing service running.
Actually quite a bit of construction work is still continuing in most places. So "shelved" is probably not quite the way I would put it. The only service truly in danger is the Valley Flyer which is running as a prototype on two year funding. They were supposed to use ridership levels as a basis for judging viability going forward. Everything else is "game on" when we come out of the current "pause".
 #1540039  by Greg Moore
 
Going back to my previous comments (I think in a different discussion) about how Robert Moses was able to get a lot done during the depression and he always had all the paperwork and blueprints in order, he was the epitome of shovel-ready.

This is a time for all that paperwork to get done and it can be done from home so the smart money is on the states and groups that take this time to get all their ducks in a row.
 #1540043  by gokeefe
 
Moses comes up a lot in my professional context. His legacy is one of mistrust by the public in government, especially at the local level. The consequences of his decisions are still being paid for by developers today who must deal with substantial regulatory burdens that are not always proportionate to potential impact.

Moses is in my opinion a terrible example to use. Anyone can come up with blueprints when there aren't any zoning codes or historic preservation regulations to abide by. That is nothing special.

I would imagine that Moses would probably loose his mind trying to conduct the detail intensive historic restorations that Amtrak has undertaken over the years at their major terminals.
 #1540045  by west point
 
Design build will be the way to go. Yes it is more expensive but not that much. Probably environmental concerns will need to be dropped. There will be more environmental damage if the economy takes too long to recover.
 #1540048  by David Benton
 
Environmental studies should not be dropped . However they could be fast tracked , no real reason they need to take 2 years or whatever. Contrary to popular belief , Environmental studies are more on the effects on humans , rather than saving some obscure endangered Snail or whatever.
 #1540064  by bostontrainguy
 
David Benton wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:43 pm Environmental studies should not be dropped . . . Environmental studies are more on the effects on humans , rather than saving some obscure endangered Snail or whatever.
Yeah like when they fight like hell to stop putting a rail line back on a roadbed that has been there for 100 years! Or fight the restoration or use of a rail line or yard that was there long before they bought their house. What should have been a simple restoration of the Greenbush rail line in Massachusetts ended up costing so much from remediation it will always be considered a financial disaster.

Environmentalist have jumped-the-shark years ago and the laws are now mostly used to obstruct progress. Just try adding a second track, a new station or a layover facility for any Amtrak expansion plans and see how that goes.
 #1540067  by Greg Moore
 
gokeefe wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:26 pm Moses comes up a lot in my professional context. His legacy is one of mistrust by the public in government, especially at the local level. The consequences of his decisions are still being paid for by developers today who must deal with substantial regulatory burdens that are not always proportionate to potential impact.

Moses is in my opinion a terrible example to use. Anyone can come up with blueprints when there aren't any zoning codes or historic preservation regulations to abide by. That is nothing special.

I would imagine that Moses would probably loose his mind trying to conduct the detail intensive historic restorations that Amtrak has undertaken over the years at their major terminals.
I both agree and disagree. (this fence is a comfortable place to sit :-)
He was in many ways, a horrible person. And yes, rightly so, much of what he did probably can't be done today. And, much of what he did (bridges deliberately too low for busses) were horrible and had horrible societal impact. I would not recommend anyone follow his model in many regards.

My point more was that just like in 2008, "Shovel Ready" is an extremely important concept. Projects that are shovel ready are more likely to get the money.
 #1540072  by David Benton
 
bostontrainguy wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:39 pm
David Benton wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:43 pm Environmental studies should not be dropped . . . Environmental studies are more on the effects on humans , rather than saving some obscure endangered Snail or whatever.
Yeah like when they fight like hell to stop putting a rail line back on a roadbed that has been there for 100 years! Or fight the restoration or use of a rail line or yard that was there long before they bought their house. What should have been a simple restoration of the Greenbush rail line in Massachusetts ended up costing so much from remediation it will always be considered a financial disaster.

Environmentalist have jumped-the-shark years ago and the laws are now mostly used to obstruct progress. Just try adding a second track, a new station or a layover facility for any Amtrak expansion plans and see how that goes.
Thats more nimbyism than environmentalisim.
As for the jumping the shark comment , well , that is not how it is seen in most other countries, sadly America is isolating itself in this regard.
 #1540096  by gokeefe
 
Greg Moore wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:29 amMy point more was that just like in 2008, "Shovel Ready" is an extremely important concept. Projects that are shovel ready are more likely to get the money.
Agreed and this is why Amtrak and state partners try so hard to use existing corridors. The "FONSI" or Finding of No Significant Impact is the goal when preparing for an expansion of passenger rail service. The FRA will make these findings almost by default when existing rail corridors and yards are used along with standard mitigation measures by operators.

I will take this a step further ... I would postulate that any expansion project for Amtrak that has a FONSI or an EIS in hand is fundamentally "shovel ready". That's really the major barrier. Everything after that is just construction engineering.

I would also note that not all potential Amtrak expansions are so large as to require a NEPA review. The Valley Flyer is one such example. No environmental review was required because it used existing facilities and did not require any new construction.
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