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  • Switch Position Indicator Pilot Program

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1519010  by gokeefe
 
Nasadowsk wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:35 pmWhat's wrong with a stupid limit switch and wires and a light a few hundred feet away, again?
NHCR's system provides an advance indication to the engineer in the cab. Given the potential use at passenger speeds I believe this is what Amtrak wants as well.

The problem with relying solely on the wayside signal is the delay between passing the signal and the switch point. I agree that there are electro mechanical systems (time locks, block occupancy detection with locks etc) that might work as well.

Part of what we are seeing right now is a concerted effort by Amtrak to raise their safety standards. In so doing their requirements now often exceed what the FRA requires.
 #1519652  by Tadman
 
Interesting that Amtrak is really pushing for safety through devices like this. Seems to me that their interim CEO, Wick Moorman, was the guy that broke the Harriman award, literally. They quit giving it out after NS won it like 15 years in a row. Strikes me that it might be a culture issue rather than a device issue.
 #1519671  by gokeefe
 
There's definitely been a lot of discussion about Amtrak's safety culture. Anderson seems convinced that rail safety improvements need to utilize additional technology.
 #1519708  by WhartonAndNorthern
 
Tadman wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:18 pm Interesting that Amtrak is really pushing for safety through devices like this. Seems to me that their interim CEO, Wick Moorman, was the guy that broke the Harriman award, literally. They quit giving it out after NS won it like 15 years in a row. Strikes me that it might be a culture issue rather than a device issue.
Keep in mind that on CTC trackage even manually controlled siding switches (like those at customer sidings) are interlocked with the ABS system: a conflicting switch position causes a red signal and as gokeefe mentions, these switches may be electronically controlled at the site (not from the dispatcher's desk) but have an electronic time lock that doesn't allow movement until the signals have time to go red and nearby trains can slow down and stop.

It's an interesting upgrade for dark territory.
 #1520206  by Tadman
 
gokeefe wrote: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:55 pm There's definitely been a lot of discussion about Amtrak's safety culture. Anderson seems convinced that rail safety improvements need to utilize additional technology.
Interesting because it's pretty well known that Crew Resource Management was the technique that really bumped air safety into the numbers it is today, far far above autos and trains. The wikipedia page is an interesting read:

"Crew resource management or cockpit resource management (CRM)[1][2] is a set of training procedures for use in environments where human error can have devastating effects. Used primarily for improving aviation safety, CRM focuses on interpersonal communication, leadership, and decision making in the cockpit of an airliner. Its pioneer was David Beaty, a former Royal Air Force pilot and later a BOAC pilot who wrote his seminal book The Human Factor in Aircraft Accidents in the late 1950s. Despite the considerable development of electronic aids since then, many of principles he developed continue to prove effective today."

TLDR, you can use all the technology you want, if you don't manage the people and processes, it's not going to be safe.

This is why PTC really sets me off. Not only is it (a) proven not positive; (b) not solving a material problem; it (c) completely contradicts empirical evidence regarding human error driving large fast vehicles.
 #1520231  by Greg Moore
 
Ayup, CRM was a huge improvement in air safety.

Not quite the same concept, but a similar idea in terms of focusing on the human aspect is the Japanese policy of Pointing and Calling.
It may seem silly and redundant in many ways, but practices such as it are associated with higher rates of safety by linking multiple actions and parts of the brain.

While automation and other safety features are a huge help, the human factors are often the most important feature.
I suspect if Amtrak had a policy of Pointing and Calling we may have at least two fewer accidents in recent memory.
 #1520233  by mtuandrew
 
Pointing & Calling defined here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling

Says it’s primarily in Japanese industry (starting in Japan Railways) and the Chinese State Railway system, but it is used in the NYC Subway in the USA.
 #1520244  by SRich
 
gokeefe wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:34 pm Buried deep in an article about service improvements in Vermont ...
Houghton noted that his company is developing a risk-reduction system known as switch position indicator technology, which allows an engineer to confirm for example that a switch at an upcoming siding is in the proper position for a through train.

"We're doing a pilot on the Ethan Allen with Amtrak, between Whitehall and Rutland," he said, referring to New York town where VS-owned tracks receive the train from another company's tracks. "We're actually in the process of deploying the equipment."

Amtrak declined to comment on its role in the pilot project.

The company is however expected to release a report soon on what safety improvements it will require for the Ethan Allen route and others where PTC is not statutorily required and not already in place.
Sounds like an interesting innovation ... "Class 4+" in some respects ...
Why is that necessary, in the Netherlands and many other country's the position of the switch is a part of the track circuit base. When te switch is misaligned then the track circuit relay(no connection with the power supply) drops resulting in a red signal.
 #1520247  by jonnhrr
 
Why is that necessary, in the Netherlands and many other country's the position of the switch is a part of the track circuit base. When te switch is misaligned then the track circuit relay(no connection with the power supply) drops resulting in a red signal.
Amtrak runs on tracks such as the portion of the Vermonter on the NECR that are "dark" territory and therefore there are no signals to turn red.