Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

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Greg Moore
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Greg Moore »

Yes, but remember, drag is basically proportional to the square of the velocity at these speeds and design.

So going from 100 mph to 150 mph isn't a 50% increase in drag, but a 250% increase.
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Tadman
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Tadman »

mcgrath618 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:45 pm
ExCon90 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:17 pm
mcgrath618 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:39 am
My biggest issue is that the carbody of the power car DOESN'T match up with the geometry of the carbodies of the passenger cars.
Doesn't it seem that that might raise some air-resistance (as well as aesthetic) issues?
Oh absolutely. If that's truly the final product, that is an abhorrent oversight.
Look closely at a 3/4 view of Brightline sets. They don't match, either. The power is straight vertical while the coaches have a side bulge like a 450 on the CA&E. There's a good possibility this will be the same on the new VIA sets and Midwest corridor fleet ordered in lieu of the Sumitomo fiasco.

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gokeefe
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by gokeefe »

Greg Moore wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:42 pm
Yes, but remember, drag is basically proportional to the square of the velocity at these speeds and design.

So going from 100 mph to 150 mph isn't a 50% increase in drag, but a 250% increase.
I was thinking about this too. At those speeds even a small amount of drag quickly adds up.

The 40% energy savings astounds every time I read it. Easy to forget what the old "bank vault on wheels" consumes for energy. I doubt Alstom will ever be able to claim that again.
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Matt Johnson
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Matt Johnson »

Amtrak audit: New Acela trains likely to be delayed

No surprise, as delays are par for the course with this kind of acquisition. But what does surprise me is this:

If there is a delay, Amtrak may run the existing Acela trains longer than planned, which could add to Amtrak’s costs because that might require significant overhaul work. The current trains started service in 2000, and if delays go beyond a year, some or all of the trainsets might need to be pulled from service, even if a replacement isn’t ready.


So, is the issue that the existing Acelas are coming off lease, or do they have a drop dead date due to FRA mandated overhaul?

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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by gokeefe »

Not sure but I'm somewhat surprised by this story. Last I had read from the Amtrak OIG the trainsets were about 90 days behind schedule. I'm having a difficult time believing that another 90 days +/- results in this absurd doomsday scenario of cancelled trains. It seemed like a good headline for clickbait but otherwise overblown.
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by mtuandrew »

I guess it’s comparable to your car burning oil. If you plan to get a new one in a few months and you aren’t worried about resale value, you probably won’t invest in the new head gasket it needs. If it suddenly becomes two years until you can get your new car, things change dramatically.

I was under the impression that Amtrak owner the Acela HSTs. If they are leased, these things entered service almost exactly two decades ago and a twenty-year lease is just about up. Seems like the lessor would be happy to collect month-by-month rent though, since it isn’t like anyone is clamoring for these units.

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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by gokeefe »

That's the problem. I don't think it's a two year delay. It seems like a few more months. I recall from the Amtrak OIG report that Alstom seemed to be very unhappy about a 90 day delay. Forget "years" ... Also notable to me that Amtrak itself does not appear to have done anything to have exacerbated this issue.
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Nasadowsk »

superstar wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:35 pm
Blunt nosed locomotives and EMUs run 100+ mph every day, a few inches of difference between the carbodies on the Avelia is not going to have any impact on performance vis-a-vis air resistance.
Where? Outside North America, blunt nosed cab cars or MUs are not seen much anymore (Belgium is an exception, plus the few Flexiliners still kicking about.). Everything has a collision absorber space ahead of the cab. The 'aero' noses aren't for aerodynamics, they're for when the train hits something. IIRC, most European MUs top out at 140-160 km/h anyway.

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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Arlington »

The delay news article seemed to me to overstate the newsworthiness of the OIG report:

A "might be" was reported asa certainty, a months delay morphed into a year, and then all was framed as a financial catastrophe caused by mismanagement (instead of the uncertainty of any new product)
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Tadman
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Tadman »

gokeefe wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:04 pm
Not sure but I'm somewhat surprised by this story. Last I had read from the Amtrak OIG the trainsets were about 90 days behind schedule. I'm having a difficult time believing that another 90 days +/- results in this absurd doomsday scenario of cancelled trains. It seemed like a good headline for clickbait but otherwise overblown.
I read part of that story and was trying to find the smoking gun, too, I'm glad I'm not taking crazy pills.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/tr ... story.html

If you read this WaPo story on the delays, it exclusively cites the IG report, a few letters from Schumer and others to each other and the FRA, and some press releases.

Absolutely no primary sources were cited here. Nobody bothered to even call Amtrak or Alstom and ask them for comment. Another clickbait article that could be written from a coffee shop.

What would've been interesting is attempting to contact Amtrak's CMO and see what additional costs they foresee trying to maintain the Acela 1 fleet, and if there are any significant hurdles similar to a D-check in the airliner world that would cause a big problem. If they couldn't get ahold of someone like the CMO, perhaps a transportation consultant or professor looking to make a name for themselves would be a good soundbite.
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electricron
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by electricron »

Tadman wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:45 am
Absolutely no primary sources were cited here. Nobody bothered to even call Amtrak or Alstom and ask them for comment. Another clickbait article that could be written from a coffee shop.

What would've been interesting is attempting to contact Amtrak's CMO and see what additional costs they foresee trying to maintain the Acela 1 fleet, and if there are any significant hurdles similar to a D-check in the airliner world that would cause a big problem. If they couldn't get ahold of someone like the CMO, perhaps a transportation consultant or professor looking to make a name for themselves would be a good soundbite.
There are not as many local news organizations and on the street beat reporters as there used to be as the news media is being consolidated to just a few national corporations. That is why there are so few primary sources removed from the national politics reported from D.C. There are fewer reporters based in Syracuse that can be assigned this story to question primary sources and report their stories over the AP and UPI networks.

I used to work for an electric utility in Texas that had an official spokesperson that all the local newsmen knew the phone number of that was always available for an official comment within hours of a call. Once a local reporter published a story stating that his/her call was unanswered. The utility punished that local news media company by pulling millions of dollars of advertisements immediately and demanded an apology from the publisher, owner, and or manager. it would take a billion dollars ad pull to have the same affect on a national news media corporation vs a local one.

That is the way it used to be, today the news media corporations have gotten too large for ad pulls to affect their bottom line.

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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by bostontrainguy »

mcgrath618 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:39 am
My biggest issue is that the carbody of the power car DOESN'T match up with the geometry of the carbodies of the passenger cars.
I agree. All of the other Alstom high-speed rail sets look so sleek and modern. This looks dated and clunky just because of that awkward transition.

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Tadman
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Tadman »

electricron wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:00 pm
Tadman wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:45 am
Absolutely no primary sources were cited here. Nobody bothered to even call Amtrak or Alstom and ask them for comment. Another clickbait article that could be written from a coffee shop.

What would've been interesting is attempting to contact Amtrak's CMO and see what additional costs they foresee trying to maintain the Acela 1 fleet, and if there are any significant hurdles similar to a D-check in the airliner world that would cause a big problem. If they couldn't get ahold of someone like the CMO, perhaps a transportation consultant or professor looking to make a name for themselves would be a good soundbite.
There are not as many local news organizations and on the street beat reporters as there used to be as the news media is being consolidated to just a few national corporations. That is why there are so few primary sources removed from the national politics reported from D.C.
That may explain some of it, but it doesn't excuse the habit and it doesn't change the fact that what they're reporting is not news. It's scuttlebut. What does it take to make a call to Amtrak? There is a PR guy, and there are other sources that will talk. As we've seen lately, people always have axes to grind and are always willing to leak.

Somehow, in three cases this week - a supposedly faulty billion dollar procurement, an allegedly discriminatory and racially-biased seat-moving, and an allegedly discriminatory pricing practice against mobility challenged adults, we have no leakers??? No off-record sources that are willing to point reporters in the right direction to find a smoking gun??? Nothing other than a tweet, which I can find???

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mcgrath618
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by mcgrath618 »

bostontrainguy wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:37 pm
mcgrath618 wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:39 am
My biggest issue is that the carbody of the power car DOESN'T match up with the geometry of the carbodies of the passenger cars.
I agree. All of the other Alstom high-speed rail sets look so sleek and modern. This looks dated and clunky just because of that awkward transition.

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ESPECIALLY considering that the current Acela transits have matching carbodies.

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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by danib62 »

Tadman wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:45 am
If you read this WaPo story on the delays, it exclusively cites the IG report, a few letters from Schumer and others to each other and the FRA, and some press releases.

Absolutely no primary sources were cited here. Nobody bothered to even call Amtrak or Alstom and ask them for comment. Another clickbait article that could be written from a coffee shop.
You know all those things you listed are primary sources, right?
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