New Superliners

[eolesen]

Interesting that Quebec would be going with CRRC and not Bombardier... Theyre the most nationalistic province in Canada, so one would think they would want a Canadi>n product....

[frequentflyer]

I think we have a new Superliner replacement option:

CRRC DD Coach.jpg

(CRRC of course)

How does this differ from the BBD Multilevel product?

[John_Perkowski]

[sarcasm][cynicism]
Someone actually expects Mr Anderson to order new multi night LD cars...
How very cute...
[/sarcasm][/cynicism]

[Backshophoss]

The CRRC design is cloned from the BBD MLV II design and tweaked just enough so BBD can't cry FOUL!
They will clear the center city tunnel in Philly at best.

MPI Boise may still have their construction jigs from the Super II and Surfliner builds done there.

[eolesen]

[sarcasm][cynicism]
Someone actually expects Mr Anderson to order new multi night LD cars...
How very cute...
[/sarcasm][/cynicism]

Well, to be fair, it does look like he’s initiated more equipment renewal RFP’s than his last couple predecessors combined.

I wouldn’t expect a Superliner replacement to be bi-levels, though.

[superstar]

MPI Boise may still have their construction jigs from the Super II and Surfliner builds done there.

The Surfliners were built by Alstom in Hornell, and the Superliner IIs by Bombardier in Barre (and possibly Plattsburgh? But I think just Barre). How did any tooling make it to Idaho?

[mtuandrew]

I wouldn’t expect a Superliner replacement to be bi-levels, though.

I’m kind of leaning that way too, for as long as Anderson is CEO, but curious why you think that.

[dowlingm]

Interesting that Quebec would be going with CRRC and not Bombardier... Theyre the most nationalistic province in Canada, so one would think they would want a Canadi>n product....

Bombardier messed up their relationship with AMT/Exo by winning a tender and then admitting they couldn't deliver.
https://montrealgazette.com/business/lo ... eport-says" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Those were not good times for BBD - C Series jet expenditures mounting, Toronto streetcar order becoming a fiasco. I think the Azur trains for the Metro were in delivery around that time too which wasn't without issues.

[eolesen]

I wouldn’t expect a Superliner replacement to be bi-levels, though.

I’m kind of leaning that way too, for as long as Anderson is CEO, but curious why you think that.

1) Bi-levels are designed for high density use like commuter service. There isn't a single long distance market that can justify high density.

2) Utilization at Amtrak isn't all that great, and it's driven by region-specific fleets for LD drive inefficiencies

3) Accessibility... why should the mobility impaired be relegated to the lower level only?

4) Personal entertainment... older folks might still be gazing out the window, but more and more people are simply sucked into their small screens while in transit, and sitting up high to see the scenery doesn't have the same appeal it did 50 years ago.

[mdvle]

Interesting that Quebec would be going with CRRC and not Bombardier... Theyre the most nationalistic province in Canada, so one would think they would want a Canadi>n product....

Don't know that anyone would call Quebec nationalistic, more provincialistic and wanting a Quebec based product (at least until the rather faint hope of some for nationhood gets granted)

However it does demonstrate how far Bombardier has fallen that there wasn't an uproar over VIA choosing SIemens either.

[mdvle]

Lots of people who can't drive can perfectly well use reasonably accessible trains and buses. But the more expensive we, via the government, make it to build or maintain public transportation systems, the less likely it is that cities, towns, states, etc., will expand or even retain their public transportation systems, or that Amtrak will serve a particular route or stop. All-door level boarding can mean fewer stations on fewer routes, so that people who could have ridden on a train with a mini-high or a couple doors with lifts or something may find that there's just no train at all.

It is no longer the 1920s, we are close to being in 2020. All-door level boarding shouldn't even be a disabled issue at this stage, it should just be a given and should have for the last 20+ years. It is more convenient, and makes the train more attractive, if everyone can simply get on/off the train at the closest door. Amtrak and VIA shouldn't be forcing their paying customers to needless walk though a train looking for a working door.

SO I ASK
Does it really help people with disabilities if we raise the cost of Amtrak equipment in a way that makes it less likely that there will be a train for them to ride at all? It's great to say someone who can't climb stairs should be able to go to the diner or the lounge, but if the train is just cancelled, is anyone better off. Does the access committee think about this question? Do their deliberations include the fact that especially with stingy US rail budgets some of their rules and priorities could easily end up eliminating some rail service in order to avoid having rail service that feels unfair because it is only partially accessible, or accessible is a possibly stigmatizing way? (The flip side is pretty bad, too: I would not support telling people with disabilities that they should accept really inconvenient or extremely limited accessibility because otherwise they'll lose the train. I just think there's a medium of substantial accessibility between total accessibility and very limited accessiblity.

There is no medium, as soon as one is introduced then everyone will find a way to use it as the default as it is cheaper.

The thing to remember though is who elected government people really care about (well, at least in terms of voters) - its the elderly because they are the ones who actually turn out and vote at elections. And it is the same demographic that is most likely to benefit from, and thus enjoy, those disabled-accessible new trains and stations. So the money will be found if necessary.

[Tadman]

1) Bi-levels are designed for high density use like commuter service. There isn't a single long distance market that can justify high density.

That doesn't make sense. If you can fit 75 paying riders in a single level coach or 120 in a superliner, why would you choose a flat? The maintenance costs are fairly similar, in that you're still paying for 8 wheels, two couplers, one HVAC system, two HEP cables. The superliner weighs 50% more, but that's only a really a factor accelerating, not running at track speed on reasonably level ground. At the end of the day, it is a big financial difference to run a superliner. Given that all long distance trains lose money, the loss is mitigated by a superliner. Consider that ATSF introduced them, not Amtrak.

Don't know that anyone would call Quebec nationalistic, more provincialistic and wanting a Quebec based product

Quebec is indeed nationalistic and has held multiple referendums on seceding from the country of Canada. That's why CP got the heck out, they didn't want to be headquartered in a different country. It's also why CN had to keep their headquarters in Montreal as a provision of privatisation, the government wanted Quebec tied to Canada.

[mtuandrew]

Agreed with Tad re: the Québécois nationalists being anything but Canadian nationalists.

Anyway.

I tend to agree with you, Mr. Olesen, but my rationale is that Amtrak has had decades of broadly dissimilar rolling stock and would love for it to all come from the same factory & drawing board again. One brand of car (and a few V-I and V-II stragglers) means Amtrak can have one maintenance base and use one set of parts. It’ll artificially limit capacity, but so did buying Siemens cars for the Midwest instead of finding another solution like N-S gallery cars or another bidder like Alstom or BBD.

[mtuandrew]

Apologies for the double post, but I wonder if the idea is that there will be no appreciable capacity drop for LD service using single level cars because they will have much closer seat pitch, i.e. they’ll be Regional cars in every respect but purchase order number. It certainly forces utilization of the V-2 bags, and encourages folks to get up and use cafe and diner facilities on 12 hour trips.

[frequentflyer]

Who knows what the Superliner replacement will be. I have read two rumors, first, Amtrak is interested in the Siemens Bi-Level product sold world wide, second, that Amtrak wants single only next LD gen. Per the Five year plan, apparently California is still interested in Bilevel equipment for future purchases, so who knows.