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  • Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1461436  by Tommy Meehan
 
The best I could find was that it depends on the exact wording of the agreements passenger service providers -- commuter agencies in addition to Amtrak -- have with freight railroads on whose tracks the passenger providers operate. In many cases the freight railroads are specifically indemnified against punitive damages. The exception seems to be, some courts have held that, regardless of agreements, certain conduct such as gross negligence or willful misconduct (the latter was cited in Chase) invalidated the agreement. I found a good discussion of this in a GAO publication having to do with commuter rail but which also discusses Amtrak. link A case where a passenger agency was able to shift liability back to the freight railroad host is described below, but it was MBTA not Amtrak.

The reality seems to be, as the Fox News article brought out, unlike MBTA, Amtrak has virtually never tried to shift liability back to freight railroads regardless of who was at fault or under what circumstances. The lone exception seems to have been the Conrail-Amtrak collision at Chase MD. But anyway, I don't think it is expected any of this will come into play in the Cayce collision. I have a hunch Amtrak will pay the claims and the amounts will be set by negotiation between the parties, not at a court trial.

.
 #1461466  by abaduck
 
Tommy Meehan wrote: Three things, first CSX can be sued over injuries in the Cayce collision but it sounds like they're not going to pay the damages, anyway, Amtrak is. Second, the private agreement is in the form of a contract and that's a legal document. If the contract assigns all liability for Amtrak employees and passengers injured on an Amtrak train -- regardless of who is at fault ('no fault') -- that is a legally enforceable document. I would think in many cases a railroad like CSX can cite that contract as a reason why they're not liable and should not be a co-defendant, but I could be wrong. Third, I'm sure the great majority of these cases are settled out of court. I would expect Amtrak to admit that the accident occurred as the result of negligence, yes on the part of a CSX employee, but during an operation for which Amtrak has full responsibility for any injuries, deaths or damages. And just go on to negotiate a settlement with the different parties, such as Michael Cella's widow.
If CSX fault and liability is established, the lawyers will certainly go after CSX, whoever else they may go after. And if they win or CSX settles, CSX will have to pay the damages.

Now the nature of the private (and substantially secret, I believe) agreement between Amtrak and CSX may (or may not) mean that CSX can subsequently claw back those damages from Amtrak so they don't end up out of pocket, net - but it absolutely does NOT allow them to cite it to avoid a finding against them, or them paying the damages, if so ordered.
 #1461468  by Backshophoss
 
Figure on the FBI to be asked about what they found at the scene by lawyers on both sides of this case,after the NTSB report is made public.
Believe it's given that the NTSB report can not be used as evidence.
 #1461471  by MACTRAXX
 
Everyone:

For more information about the CSX/MBTA incident that Tommy Meehan mentions above see:

viewtopic.php?t=50057" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MBTA Commuter Train Accident at Canton (MA) 3/25/2008 - in MBTA Forum 26 pages - locked.

The Cayce wreck aftermath is now lots of legalese - will this help the NTSB find the actual cause
or can the "blame game" between Amtrak and CSX hamper matters even more?

MACTRAXX
 #1461550  by Alex M
 
if there is a finding of gross negligence on the part of CSX, something tells me that they might tell Amtrak to find another route for the Silver Star, either down the A line or over NS on a round about routing via Charlotte and Atlanta to Florida on the former AB&C through Waycross.
 #1461589  by farecard
 
A question related to my Monday Star trip.

We left ORL at ~1150 that morning, and lost time along the way; we arrived at ~2200.
At ~1630 we passed a large Verizon Central office on the RH side. Alas, my phone's GPS was off.
It can be seen at https://photos.app.goo.gl/9qFAGMKM0DZMWnfn1.

Does anyone here recognize it & know where it is?
 #1461628  by Gadfly
 
I don't know what's involved with installing PTC, but if it required work on the signals themselves, when us "old heads" were around. I am reluctant to get involved in "facebook factfinding", or media speculation, but my first thought when I heard of this wreck was, "UH-OH, somebody left the switch open. If the signals were suspended for work, particularly if it were for a a single location, block, whatever, it would all be by Train Order. ..Which, of course, is now history. (Like *I* am) :wink:



In the old days of timetable and train order, a work crew would have been assigned to that location. The order would've read, "Order # 405 (Four Naught Five) to Yard, Yardmaster, All Starting. Period. ). Approach Milepost 615 (Six One Five), prepared to stop short of signal and do not proceed until notified the way is clear by Maintenance of Way Foreman, or Signal Foreman, (or Flagman if so designated) Wayne Strom. Signed REP, Chief Dispatcher, JO (signature of operator).

The Rules meant that trains were to expect restricted signals and approach speeds according to standard rule book. They would have received a copy of this order at the previous Open Station. This notified the trains, crews, station agents the line ahead was being worked on.

I seem to recall that Southern/NS did not allow signals (sidings and switches) to be open, except in switching yards. These were the ones with the "target flags" on them. On NS, if I'm not mistaken, if mainline switch was tampered with or opened, the Dispatcher would SEE it, and the signal would go Red. It was designed to prevent a wreck such as this. If I read the story correctly, the signals on CSX didn't work that way? I heard of signals being tampered with by outsiders, thinking they could "have some fun". More than once, I heard an engineer, "157 to dispatcher! What's happened? The signal just went RED in my face", making for a rather abrupt emergency stop. :( The same was true if a train is setting off cars and fouling the main. When the train occupied the block the signal went RED behind him in the block, and the previous block before that would go to "Approach". Likewise the signals ahead did the same thing. This provided "blocked in" protection, prevented headlight meets, and 'run-ins" where a following train caught up and ran the rear block signal. In the old flagging days, that's what happened to Casey Jones. They were doing something called a "Saw-by" where a long train that couldn't clear up fully could take siding, (or shove back thru the whole siding) and occupy the entire track. When the rear of the train cleared the main, the engine would be out at the opposite end of the siding, "sticking" out (fouling) main track. When the rear flagman signaled the superior train, he was to proceed slowly by. When his cab cleared the rear of the inferior train, the sided train would back back out onto the main, fouling that switch and clearing the head end. This would allow Casey's train to proceed past at restricted speed. That didn't happen, and Casey missed the flagman and plowed into the other train before it could clear the switch. But I digress....................

The trouble with this current system, and the reason for the "modern" way of doing things is reduction in force. Cutting jobs, Cutting overhead. In the old days, of which I was a part, there would be someone there to stop this from happening. Such rarely ever happened. Southern rarely had major derailments; they simply were positively anal about track maintenance and preventing accidents. :wink: We had more agents, more work crews, more operators who had direct contact with the train crews. Gradually people were cut off, retired, moved out. Less people, more profit, but less oversight, IMHO! Correct me if I'm wrong. It's been a long time since I cleared trains. (Over!) Shortly after I bid back in at the shops (Week DAYS & 7-3:30 shift--YAAAAAA!), they went to track warrants and Dispatcher-controlled operations. But maybe PTC will fix all this.

In short, the passenger train that wrecked would have had a speed restriction in that area, or a RED signal. But they do it differently these days. I suppose it is "better", but they sure seem to have more wrecks!

GF
 #1461634  by justalurker66
 
Based on the previous replies here there was a "conductor on site" who verified the position of the switch to the dispatcher before the dispatcher allowed the train to pass through the area with the signal suspension. That would be similar to your description except the communication would have been handled through the dispatcher.

With a signal suspension in place the dispatcher would have relied on the "conductor on site" instead of any indication on their model board. If I understand correctly, normally signalled operations would have shown occupancy if the switch was left open - which would have dropped trains to restricted speed as they passed through the area looking for open switches, broken rails, occupancy or any other problem. But under signal suspension the person is trusted more than the signal indication.

I look forward to the official reports which will clarify the details. But based on what we have been told so far I believe the above is accurate.
 #1461656  by DutchRailnut
 
you won't see those cars back in service, or worked on for years to come.
Everything gets impounded and not released till NTSB, FRA, and all legal action is finished with them.
 #1461659  by farecard
 
DutchRailnut wrote:you won't see those cars back in service, or worked on for years to come.
Everything gets impounded and not released till NTSB, FRA, and all legal action is finished with them.
And Amtrak has the money to rebuild them.
 #1461701  by justalurker66
 
DutchRailnut wrote:NTSB asking for FRA to issue emergency order.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... SR1801.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Recommendation
To the Federal Railroad Administration:

Issue an Emergency Order directing railroads to require that when signal suspensions are in effect and a switch has been reported relined for a main track, the next train or locomotive to pass the location must approach the switch location at restricted speed. After the switch position is verified, the train crew must report to the dispatcher that the switch is correctly lined for the main track before trains are permitted to operate at maximum-authorized speed. (R-18-005)
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