Amfleet Replacement Discussion.

[Nasadowsk]

Even though BBD owns a lot of the Budd and Pullman IP, they may not own the rights to the names. IIRC, Budd is still around, but owned by a German firm (Thyssen? Which got merged with Krupp a while back. Krupp's three ring logo represents train wheel tires, one of their first products)

I'm not sure what brand value Pullman has outside the US. Budd wasn't too international, but their stuff was typical highly regarded (I think some Budd built or licensed stuff is still running in South America, and France, and maybe Japan).

As far as a builder for the US market only - it's too small and cyclical to work.

Of course, if the FRA rationalizes their regulations and a US based builder can compete in Europe (work with me on this one..), then that's an interesting angle. But, a lot of capital, a lot of R&D to catch up, and then building a reputation, which means undercutting on cost and getting it perfect for a few years. Bombardier couldn't do that, even with the backing of the Canadian government...

[gokeefe]

Worth noting that the FRA has recently done exactly just that. European safety standards have been placed in a proposed rule as acceptable for U.S. operations without need for further review.

[AgentSkelly]

I always thought that for US passenger cars built to the full FRA spec, it would be a wise idea to partner with a company like Gunderson who builds frieght cars do the actual manufacturing since they have experience with the "heavy US cars"...

[mtuandrew]

Heck, former passenger car builder ACF is still in the freight car business.

Stainless car bodies are a whole different animal though, as are the interior and everything. A freight car builder could reasonably do a carbon steel frame or an aluminum car body, maybe install trucks cast elsewhere, but nothing more without heavy investment and a new shop.

[Backshophoss]

Both Gunderson and ACF are freight carbuilders,while ACF was a passenger car builder in the past,they no longer have the
basic abilty to do so now,what they had has been changed to freight car production.
The closest Gunderson got was the MHC II's built for Amtrak during the "Express craze",but
that was a Boxcar for all purposes.
Budd created the "Shotweld" process for Stainless Steel welding,that been licensed to N-S,CAF, and
Kawasaki from BBD if they still hold the patent rights on the process.

[BandA]

Budd created the "Shotweld" process for Stainless Steel welding,that been licensed to N-S,CAF, and
Kawasaki from BBD if they still hold the patent rights on the process.

According to wikipedia, patents in US are 20 years or less.

[Nasadowsk]

I think they used to be 17. The shotweld process is likely so common and old around industry now that BBD doesn't have any claim on it anyway.

Only an idiot would order a passenger railcar made out of carbon steel these days. Pretty much everything's stainless or aluminum.

Cast trucks? What is this, 1953? Even locomotive trucks are fabricated now.

[BuddR32]

Even though BBD owns a lot of the Budd and Pullman IP, they may not own the rights to the names. IIRC, Budd is still around, but owned by a German firm (Thyssen? Which got merged with Krupp a while back. Krupp's three ring logo represents train wheel tires, one of their first products)

I'm not sure what brand value Pullman has outside the US. Budd wasn't too international, but their stuff was typical highly regarded (I think some Budd built or licensed stuff is still running in South America, and France, and maybe Japan).

Also, important to note that BUDD was more than just railcars. They had a HUGE stamping division that made automobile bodies and body parts. Many 60's-70's Chrysler products were Budd bodies. This continued on long after 1987. In fact their large plant in Michigan recently closed, still stamping body parts, although maybe under the name Thyssen-Krupp.

[mtuandrew]

Mr. Nasadowski: aren't the outside swing hangers on the GSI-70 still cast steel? Could be forged or waterjet-cut too, I suppose.

Agreed on the carbon steel - I don't know the full story, but I understand that Metra purchased Highliners with Cor-Ten frames once upon a time. Good idea, it develops a protective corrosion layer quickly and is far cheaper to make and fabricate than stainless, but the passivation layer failed quickly when in constant contact with water and salt (aka Chicago.) Any major freight manufacturer could make an aluminum body (I believe grain hoppers are often Al - correct me if I'm wrong?) but that's a task for a subcontractor anyway.

[Nasadowsk]

Mr. Nasadowski: aren't the outside swing hangers on the GSI-70 still cast steel? Could be forged or waterjet-cut too, I suppose.

Maybe? Doesn't matter now that Buckeye/Columbus is gone. Who owns the IP? Who knows? I don't think it matters to anyone anymore, other than the legal fights that'll go on with the SL-Vs in Philly.

[CComMack]

Worth noting that the FRA has recently done exactly just that. European safety standards have been placed in a proposed rule as acceptable for U.S. operations without need for further review.

This is correct, and not getting nearly the attention I thought it would here. For those who want to read it for themselves, the documentation is at https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L18435" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . It doesn't adopt European standards verbatim; there are small technical changes to maintain some backwards-compatibility with current US rolling stock and signals. For HSR trains, FRA estimates that adapting a Euronorm HSR trainset to the new Tier III* standard would cost $310,250, or 0.62%, per trainset, and describes the cost difference for the new Tier I revision as similar. Given that an operator could expect to recoup that cost in fuel savings alone inside of a year, there is basically no reason for a carbuilder wanting to bid for the Amfleet replacement not to start with a Euronorm-approved design and then adapt it to the US standard. (Even the Asian carbuilders should have one of those on hand.) So the only useful signal given by previous successful US-market coach orders, is whether a carbuilder possesses an assembly plant that can crank out an order on time and on budget. Nontrivial information, but rarely taken into as full account as it should be. Designs themselves are now obsolete.

As a brief aside, I think there is enough passenger travel demand to justify an Amfleet-replacement order of 1000 coaches, minimum. Amtrak conventional trains in the Northeast are *short*, and while the Avelias will soak up some of the latent demand, there is really no reason not to be plotting 12-car Northeast Regionals on the NEC mainline, ASAP.


*Tier III supersedes but does not replace the Tier II standard created for Acela, although there is basically no conceivable reason to ever build a Tier II trainset ever again, between the revised Tier I and new Tier III.

[bdawe]

*Tier II

I was under the impression that Tier III could only operate at speeds greater than 125 on dedicated track (IE not the NEC)

[gokeefe]

I think it's worth noting that this regulatory change by the FRA may mean the NGEC standards are going to get scrapped before a single car is ever built.

[bdawe]

Given that these cars are expected to work for decades, that's arguably a good thing

[Matt Johnson]

*Tier II

I was under the impression that Tier III could only operate at speeds greater than 125 on dedicated track (IE not the NEC)

Well, Avelia Liberty is going to run at 160 mph on the NEC, so...