Amfleet Replacement Discussion.

[David Benton]

I understand what it means , I just don't know why Amtrak needs to own the design . I don't know any other railway/railroad that does, and I don't think Airlines feel the need to own the plane design either.

[mtuandrew]

David: good luck getting a big company to design and bid on a little and maybe recurring order of diners, or maybe sleepers, or maybe baggage cars or lounges or Slumbercoaches or........ If Amtrak owns the design, they get reasonably compatible cars with compatible parts, without being locked into one builder or supplier.

For a decent sized order of coaches that aren't much different than an off-the-shelf design, it isn't as big a problem for a big builder (Kawi, N-S, Siemens, Hyundai Rotem, Bomb, others?) to offer a competitive bid.

[deathtopumpkins]

I understand what it means , I just don't know why Amtrak needs to own the design . I don't know any other railway/railroad that does, and I don't think Airlines feel the need to own the plane design either.

The issue isn't that Amtrak needs to own the design - it's that people keep suggesting that Amtrak buy more cars that use a design owned by a company that Amtrak does not want to do business with: Bombardier.

Owning the design also has the distinct advantage of allowing you to go to multiple different vendors to build what is essentially the exact same thing.

[Greg Moore]

It's true that Amtrak's bids are generally smaller than most commuter railroads (and their needs different enough they can't simply use most commuter equipment).

That said, I believe the idea has been a steady order of 125 cars a year for 5-6 years. That should help tempt some of the manufacturer more than say a 20 car/year order, or even an order simply for 125 cars total.

That said, I think one (and about the only) advantage of going with a design Amtrak owns is they can get exactly what they want AND get into competitive bidding. (One thing the government for the most part has gotten away from on large projects is competitive bidding. I suspect projects like the F-35 would be cheaper if more than one manufacturer were able to build it.)

That said, regardless if it's a Viewliner derived design or another, Amtrak really needs to get out there and start replacing and expanding its fleet.

I personally would argue for at least an 600 car Amfleet I replacement (and probably more) and easily a 200 car Amfleet II replacement. (it would be ideal but not necessary if they could use the same design, but for example on the LD fleet, there's less of a desire for a vestibule at both ends, and they can probably use that space otherwise (such as storage)

But pressure on Amtrak AND our politicos will help.

[mtuandrew]

The issue isn't that Amtrak needs to own the design - it's that people keep suggesting that Amtrak buy more cars that use a design owned by a company that Amtrak does not want to do business with: Bombardier.

Owning the design also has the distinct advantage of allowing you to go to multiple different vendors to build what is essentially the exact same thing.

I think we got our lines crossed in the overall discussion. jp1822 originally suggested a car that resembles the Acela in its large windows and general structure, not a new regional single-level based on the Acela or necessarily owned/supplied by Bombardier. As for Ski-Doo, we won't know if they and Amtrak buried the hatchet until the bids come in.

[David Benton]

yes , I thought we were talking about Acela 2 design, which is nothing to do with bombardier.

[Backshophoss]

IF you want big windows,and not setting of a landmine of sorts in the process,I would look at the design of the Rohr
coaches built with the Turbos,currently stored at Bear De shop.
BBD still owns the Amfleet designs(part of the Budd Co remains) and the Superliner I design(part of the Pullman-Standard remains)
Not sure if Rohr is still in business,Amtrak was smart enough to buy the Viewliner designs,before Budd folded up after building
the 3 prototype shells.
Use of modules is part of the design and structure of the Viewliners,so seating modules become part of the structure,
as would food service modules a la Amfleet/Horizen food service cars.

[Woody]

Looking at the FY2016 ridership numbers, looking at the bi-level discussion, looking at the Quad Cities discussion and other things really makes me wonder:

How much ridership is Amtrak really leaving on the table? My guess is, quite a lot.

So one question I have is, does Amtrak have any decent projections on what they could do with an expanded fleet?

The total US population was 203,000,000 in 1970. Today it is 325,000,000. That's a 50% increase while Amtrak has been in business. We aren't close to keeping up.

Never heard of a system-wide estimate for "maximum Amtrak". Guessing that no one dares to make such a calculation.

From the PRIIA studies, we have estimates that the Cardinal and the Sunset Ltd would about double ridership by going daily, for well over 200,000 more Amtrak riders right there.

Add a few no-brainers like a second train NYC-ATL, a second train NYC-ALB-BUF-CLE-TOL-CHI, and a restored route NYC-Philly-PGH-CLE-TOL-CHI. Provide one more transcontinental train, say the North Shore Hiawatha (I prefer to call it the Sacajawea). Another million.

Look at the big Stimulus routes:

St Louis-CHI was hauling more than 600,000 or so pax before about a Billion in trackwork and other upgrades disrupted the schedules. Next year the work should be finished, and the trip will be "about an hour" faster. When the new bi-levels arrive, each coach will carry about 30% more riders. So 600,000 should grow to 780,000 a year. At least one more, and maybe 3 more frequencies will be added to the current 4 (+ the Texas Eagle). Another frequency suggests another 200,000 pax. Adding 3 frequencies puts the route at roughly 1.3 million riders fairly soon.

Detroit-CHI will also run faster starting next year, and without adding frequencies should add another 200,000 riders or more.

Seattle-Portland ridership on the Cascades was 800,000 or so before construction projects ruined the on-time performance and drove down ridership to barely 600,000 now. The work ends next year with OTP set to go from 73% to 88%, with about 10 minutes shaved from the schedule, and with 2 more Cascades runs added to the present 4 (+ Coastal Starlight). The annual count should grow by 300,000 or more.

The Piedmonts running Charlotte-Raleigh will shave at least half an hour off the schedules and add one more (or is it 2 more?) frequencies. Look for another 100,000 or more riders here.

Let's go back to the Midwest and build 110-mph segments St Paul-CHI, Cincinnati/Louisville-Indianapolis-CHI, and PGH-CLE-TOL-CHI. Bring 79 mph top speeds to Lincoln-Omaha-Des Moines-Iowa City-Quad Cities-CHI and Memphis-Carbondale-Champaign-CHI.
Go back to the Cascades route to cut more time from the Seattle-Portland trunk, add more frequencies, extend some upgrades north toward Vancouver, B.C., and south to Eugene, Oregon, and begin a Spokane-Pasco-Seattle corridor service.
Build the planned shortcut Richmond-Petersburg-Raleigh to run 6 corridor trains a day.
Details. Details.

The big picture, if Wick Moorman gets 2 minutes with the new boss, ask for $20 Billion for new equipment and $50 Billion for upgrading corridors. The goal: Double Amtrak's ridership -- a 100% increase -- within 10 years.

[BandA]

When railroads were profitable, the "timetable" for equipment or construction of lines was much, much shorter than today. Even Brightline seems to have a shorter time frame than subsidized lines.

Bombardier made some excellent commuter rail coaches for the MBTA.

[deathtopumpkins]

Bombardier made some excellent commuter rail coaches for the MBTA.

Yeah, 30 years ago. And I wouldn't call them excellent. I'd rather sit in a Rotem.

[adamj023]

The coach cars on Amfleet II Auto train really need to be replaced with all the latest amenities and comfortable seating. Same goes throughout the system where Amfleet cars are used. They need coach and business class with a true seating and service level difference. Amtrak added business class on Auto train but same Amfleet cars making business class really viable only when Amtrak implements new cars.

CAF deliveries have been slow and it will be a miracle when the Viewliner II replacements are in. Viewliners with roomettes and bedrooms account for more dollar revenue than coach and business class so it makes sense to implement those earlier.

Can the old Acela cars be reutilized on other trains? New cars should be in by 2022. The metroliners apparently had motors removed and some are still used.

By 2022 I don't see why the Acela sets would have to be put out of service as surely they could improve service on other lines.

[Gilbert B Norman]

The coach cars on Amfleet II Auto train really need to be replaced...

Mr. Adam, it HAS been a while since your last Auto Train "voyage". The A-II cars were phased out during 1995 as the present S-II equipment was placed in service.

[Greg Moore]

The coach cars on Amfleet II Auto train really need to be replaced with all the latest amenities and comfortable seating. Same goes throughout the system where Amfleet cars are used. They need coach and business class with a true seating and service level difference. Amtrak added business class on Auto train but same Amfleet cars making business class really viable only when Amtrak implements new cars.

CAF deliveries have been slow and it will be a miracle when the Viewliner II replacements are in. Viewliners with roomettes and bedrooms account for more dollar revenue than coach and business class so it makes sense to implement those earlier.

Can the old Acela cars be reutilized on other trains? New cars should be in by 2022. The metroliners apparently had motors removed and some are still used.

By 2022 I don't see why the Acela sets would have to be put out of service as surely they could improve service on other lines.

Basically because travelling at 135MPH and 150MPH puts a lot more wear and tear on them.

That said, the only other places you really could use them would be to Harrisburg. At least unless you add catenary in other places.

[Ridgefielder]

Didn't go back through the entire thread to see if this was mentioned already, but: I'm pretty sure that larger windows on new rolling stock are not a "nice to have" but a "legally required to have" feature. I believe current Federal law requires that windows be large enough for an average-sized man on a stretcher be passed through them by first responders. Thus the dramatic difference in window size between Metro-North's 1970's-designed M3-M6 MU fleet and the more modern M7's & M8's. Something in the back of my mind says this came about as a result of the 1996 Capitol Limited wreck in Silver Spring, MD.

[Jeff Smith]

Auto Train Discussion: http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=38757" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Acela Disposition: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=150817" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This topic pertains to Amfleet Replacements. Thank you.