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  • Buffalo Central Station under Amtrak (Past, Present, Future)

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1425468  by SST
 
Okay, I'll make the first reply........

More than anything I would love to see the terminal put back in service. It annoys me to no end how many buildings have been bulldozed for whatever excuse they come up with. BUT, the location is lousy. The terminal is located between to points, the suburbs and the city. I've been to both Utica and Kansas City. The difference between those two and Buffalo is simply stated in one word. Location! Utica and Kansas City are both located IN the city.

I had gone to the train show in Utica. I took Amtrak. The very reason I took the train is because the station was right there in the city. After the train show, I walked to the hotel and later walked around the city. If the set up was like Buffalo, I likely would not have gone. I wonder what would happen if I got off the train at the terminal and walked around awhile. Hmmmmmm.

The Kansas City terminal has the WWI museum immediately across the street. An old freight house converted to several restaurants are on the opposite side of the track but within an easy walk. I ate there. Tremendous view of train movements. There is nothing like that here at the terminal. And no guarantee that there will be just because Amtrak brings in 7 or 8 trains a day and maybe 30 passengers get on or off. I'll bet most passengers are thru passengers going to or coming from NYC.

You stated above about Amtrak having to reverse out of a station downtown. You say that Amtrak will never go for it. But isn't that what they did for every train in Niagara Falls? Its annoying I agree but they did it all the time regardless of the direction they were going. Amtrak will have to consider whether the reverse maneuver will cost them more or less as compared to how many passengers will likely ride into death valley vs a city that is finally starting wake up.

Amtrak isn't going to send a train someplace because preservationist want to save a building. They are going to send a train where the passengers want to go or where Amtrak thinks they will go. Going downtown will provide descent connections with Metrorail. This would allow UB South students the option to take Metrorail and connect onto Amtrak instead of getting a ride to Amtrak Depew. Plus, and for the same reason I took Amtrak to Utica, it will drop me off where everything is "happening."

Amtrak pulled out of the terminal for a reason. What has changed since then that would make them want to come back?

Please don't chew me to pieces. I really do want to save the terminal. But my white collar mentality says that downtown is best for the arriving and departing passenger and that means money.
Last edited by SST on Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
 #1425469  by BR&P
 
videobruce wrote:.
Over 100 views and no one has any opinion?
.
Who cares? Image

I'm one of those people you mention above who cares about MY money. A rail terminal is something which is of no use to me as I prefer the ease and convenience of driving my own vehicle. I'm sure many people one here may feel the same, even though they may enjoy seeing passenger trains.

While I realize we must provide SOMETHING for train travelers, I would much rather that the government use the money it takes out of my pocket (because ALL government money comes from those who produce) and use it for other things. Building a fancy station will do little to boost the old terminal area, which I understand is in a hellhole of a neighborhood. I would think the good folks of Buffalo would want people arriving by train to see a better part of the city anyway. Build a modest structure in a decent neighborhood, and leave the rest of the funds in the wallets of those who earned it.

You are free to disagree but you asked for opinions.
 #1425482  by videobruce
 
Judging by the huge turnout both times, many do.
If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. I guess I was wrong about you.
 #1425491  by BR&P
 
videobruce wrote:Judging by the huge turnout both times, many do.
If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. I guess I was wrong about you.
And what problem IS it we're talking about? Where to put Buffalo's train station.

Maybe I should have said I don't care rather than who cares. I don't live in Buffalo, and I don't ride the train. Let the citizens of Buffalo decide what works for them. I'm fine with whatever they come up with, as long as it is not cubic dollars from the taxpayers pockets.
 #1425559  by lvrr325
 
I guess my question would be how many people in an average day use the train station?

I'm just curious how many dollars per person any of these projects would cost, versus just leaving things alone, is a new station even needed at all?

If it's in a lousy neighborhood, Central Terminal isn't much better, I don't know where you go to get a real big improvement. Central Terminal's problem has always been that it's not really Central to anything.

And I looked up what it might cost me to take the train there to see a concert and found it was just as cheap to drive even in my van that gets lousy fuel mileage, without having to wait hours to make connections.

So ultimately it doesn't matter to me what they do, I'll never use it or even look at it, the only concern becomes where the money comes from and if it's even worth bothering given the costs.
 #1425565  by videobruce
 
Let the citizens of Buffalo decide what works for them.
This ISN'T necessarily just for residents of the city of Buffalo! Part of the overall plan would be to eliminate that mistake out in Depew using the Depot since why have two close together?
I'll never use it or even look at it, the only concern becomes where the money comes from and if it's even worth bothering given the costs.
Man, you people are pathetic. This might as well be posted in a airline forum. You call yourselves "railfans"? How about "I'm selfish & self centered, I don't use it so I don't want to pay for it"

But, your ok with paying for that stadium out in Orchard Park (another mistake) with you dollars that used a handful of times each year. Or paying for that hardly used route 219, especially that recent extension mostly to help a competing industry; trucking.
 #1425571  by deathtopumpkins
 
Might I suggest you try being a little less hostile towards people who disagree about using BCT? Your thread title implies that you want a discussion.

As for me, as much as I would like to see the building restored, and for its intended purpose, I just don't see it happening. It was built in the wrong place to begin with. There's a reason every time I have occasion to visit Buffalo, I drive (or don't go at all). BCT might have theoretically better bus connections than Depew (and an occasionally brought up idea to build a new Metro Rail line to the airport), but it's still far away from where things are happening in Buffalo - Canalside, Allentown, and Elmwood Village. The area around BCT needs a lot more help than a train station.

Building a new station downtown would be the most useful for both visitors and locals (bus and Metro Rail connections, walkable attractions, food, etc.), and is the best option for Buffalo's future. The only concern still remains 48/49, which is why despite the obvious superiority of Canalside, I would favor Larkinville. It's still close to downtown, there is clearly desirable development already happening there, and it has equally good parking potential and access from 190 as Canalside. Connecting transit remains an issue, but could be easily solved by either rerouting some bus routes (you already have the 15 - Seneca running right by it), or, ideally, a short extension of Metro Rail.
 #1425572  by charlie6017
 
videobruce wrote:
Let the citizens of Buffalo decide what works for them.
This ISN'T necessarily just for residents of the city of Buffalo! Part of the overall plan would be to eliminate that mistake out in Depew using the Depot since why have two close together?
I'll never use it or even look at it, the only concern becomes where the money comes from and if it's even worth bothering given the costs.
Man, you people are pathetic. This might as well be posted in a airline forum. You call yourselves "railfans"? How about "I'm selfish & self centered, I don't use it so I don't want to pay for it"

But, your ok with paying for that stadium out in Orchard Park (another mistake) with you dollars that used a handful of times each year. Or paying for that hardly used route 219, especially that recent extension mostly to help a competing industry; trucking.
Why are you so combative? You should consider realizing not everyone feels the same way, that's
how life works. It's okay to have a different opinion, it doesn't take away from yours. I have stayed
away from this thread just because I don't feel like being attacked, but it's getting ridiculous now.

For the record, I love the old BCT and wish it could be saved, but downtown is the place for any
station that may be built. It just makes sense. Others have already elaborated on why I feel that
way.

That's MY OPINION, and I stand by it.

Charlie
 #1425586  by videobruce
 
Opinions are not the issue, the reason is. The "hostility" & "combative" comes from being sick and tired hearing the same thing from a certain group whining about money. There is plenty of waste out the, start with the military instead of nickel & dimeing it here. You claim to be "Railfans", don't 'dis' it.

Yes, the East Side needs more help that a "train station", but it has to start somewhere and why not there? It's not "just" a train station. Integration of a transportation hub with the Broadway market (mentioned previously) in the same building makes it far more than just a station.
 #1425588  by BR&P
 
OK, obviously this view is unpopular with many, but I'll put my opinion right out there for all to see.

Just because someone is a railfan or posts on a railfan forum does not mean they blindly support anything and everything. Personally I think passenger rail is an excellent way to go in places like the NE Corridor, but I think long-distance service is a waste of money. We have airlines (using taxpayer funded airports), we have buses (using taxpayer paid highways). As far as I am concerned, there is little reason to also subsidize Amtrak. There is a REASON rail passenger traffic has been unprofitable since the 40's or whenever. Get the passenger trains off the rails, and use the operating capacity to get trucks off the highway.

As for the big terminal in Buffalo, it's an awesome looking structure. I wish I could have toured it in about 1945 when things were bustling, both in terms of trains and with it full of NYC offices. But it's derelict and in a bad location. If some company can save it, that would be wonderful, and they should get some tax breaks to help. But this state has a taxation rate among the highest in the nation. As we spend more and more, population shrinks and the tax burden falls on a smaller and smaller base of payers. The .gov is already taking too much of my money and throwing it away on stuff like signs along the Thruway and people who won't pull their own weight. I'm not in favor of elaborate passenger rail service and infrastructure.

YMMV.
 #1425593  by charlie6017
 
I could not have said this any better, from beginning to end. I, too, would loved to have toured BCT in the 1940's and wish
a time machine exists so we could do just that. In today's world it's nearly impossible to drive down any road or highway without
fear of hitting a crumbling CAVERN of a pothole that would potentially cost me hundreds of dollars (that I do not have!) to repair
because they are so beat to hell from all the traffic on them.

The only way I see the neighborhood around BCT improving? Implode and remove BCT. Once again, I LOVE Buffalo Central Terminal
and all of it's storied history. But it has now sat for close to 40 years unused and derelict, and invites criminal types. In my humble
opinion, it needs to be removed before the area around it can be properly redeveloped and formed into a profitable and (hopefully)
crime-free area.

As BR&P said, YMMV.

Charlie
 #1425639  by lvrr325
 
videobruce wrote:
Let the citizens of Buffalo decide what works for them.
This ISN'T necessarily just for residents of the city of Buffalo! Part of the overall plan would be to eliminate that mistake out in Depew using the Depot since why have two close together?
I'll never use it or even look at it, the only concern becomes where the money comes from and if it's even worth bothering given the costs.
Man, you people are pathetic. This might as well be posted in a airline forum. You call yourselves "railfans"? How about "I'm selfish & self centered, I don't use it so I don't want to pay for it"

But, you're ok with paying for that stadium out in Orchard Park (another mistake) with you dollars that used a handful of times each year. Or paying for that hardly used route 219, especially that recent extension mostly to help a competing industry; trucking.
No, I'm not really okay with those things either, but I do actually use part of Route 219 a couple times a year. The football stadium sees a hell of a lot more people than the train station. Heck it would probably make more sense to run trains into there for the games and build a station there.

Central Terminal was a mistake when it was built and remains a mistake to this day. God bless them if they can do something with it, but it's no use to me, I don't even go to the train show there. If that makes me not a railfan I guess I can live with it.

A new train station is not going to fix Buffalo's problems. It didn't hardly change anything in Syracuse.
 #1425653  by Noel Weaver
 
This thing has already been belabored to death here - viewtopic.php?f=46&t=158020" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My thoughts have not changed. It would be totally ridiculous to even try to reuse the old Buffalo Central Terminal. Just to heat this place in a Buffalo winter would cost more than Amtrak takes in revenue from all of upstate New York. It is not needed, it is the wrong thing in the wrong place for all of the reasons that I and others have elaborated on the above forum. Time for deletions and maybe padlocks.
Noel Weaver
 #1425663  by Otto Vondrak
 
So just to set up some context, Amtrak's ridership is growing, Empire Corridor ridership is growing, more people are taking the train than ever before.

That said, whatever new station is built should not be designed for status quo, it should be designed for growth. My only comments against a downtown station is that it only serves the Empire Corridor trains. On top of that, "Canalside" is a downtown developer's dream, and most of the proposals are being pushed by developers, NOT transit planners. Guess who stands to benefit if another new project is built in Canalside?

Someone brought up the bad neighborhood around BCT, someone brought up the cost of heating and operating BCT. The only thing I'll offer is that the right kind of investment will benefit a neighborhood, I've seen it many times over in cities worse off than Buffalo. As far as the costs of heating and operating BCT, if you're talking about using the 1929 hardware and 2017 fuel costs, you're absolutely right. However, no one is suggesting the entire complex be converted back into a train station, a station at BCT would be part of a public-private development where a train station is included as part of the private development of BTC already under consideration.

That said, some members of this forum need to stop bickering and being hostile. If the new train station ends up at BCT, great. If not, Buffalo will still get a much-needed new Amtrak station. Either way it's a win for train travel in New York State.

-otto-
 #1425669  by BR&P
 
Otto Vondrak wrote: a station at BCT would be part of a public-private development where a train station is included as part of the private development of BTC already under consideration.

-otto-
To a degree that makes sense. The big - the BIGGEST - caveat is that there have been various plans, hopes, discussions and attempts to do something with the property for many years. While some are hoping the train station could help jump-start the rehab, there is a VERY real concern that if they build a station and for whatever reason the development does not take off, now you have a nice new station in the middle of hell. "Critical mass" is needed - somehow.
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