Railroad Forums 

  • Buffalo Central Station under Amtrak (Past, Present, Future)

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1426223  by rohr turbo
 
mtuandrew wrote: Yep - CSX can get some money by leasing air rights to either Amtrak or the BCT operators for a pedestrian bridge, set at a certain level over the tracks, with the option to revoke or modify the terms of the lease at its (CSXT's) sole discretion...
I'm not sure if you're joking. If not, I seriously doubt CSX can extort air-rights $$ from Amtrak for a bridge used for passenger operations. CSX's predescessor contracted with Amtrak to run passenger trains using the railroad's track and certain facilities. Much as they'd like, CSX cannot 'revoke or modify the terms.'

And I'm surprised so many here think it's so difficult to put modest ramps into passenger facilities.
 #1426233  by Backshophoss
 
CSX Does control the "air rights" over their ROW,as it is now CSX and Amtrak barely play well even when the state pays for upgrades.
The Concourse is a lost cause to reconnect over the CSX ROW,allowing access for the platform tracks to the CSX main line is another
nitemare on it's own.


CSX as the host RR holds all the track access rights.
 #1426234  by gokeefe
 
Backshophoss wrote:CSX as the host RR holds all the track access rights.
Very true. That being said passenger trains have been operated from this site in the Amtrak era. Amtrak's previous operating agreement at this site with Conrail and Penn Central would almost certainly carry forward.
 #1426255  by mtuandrew
 
rohr turbo wrote:I'm not sure if you're joking. If not, I seriously doubt CSX can extort air-rights $$ from Amtrak for a bridge used for passenger operations. CSX's predescessor contracted with Amtrak to run passenger trains using the railroad's track and certain facilities. Much as they'd like, CSX cannot 'revoke or modify the terms.'
Nope, not joking - it wasn't April Fools yet :P Amtrak may not pay, but Central Terminal Restoration Corporation probably would.
gokeefe wrote:
Backshophoss wrote:CSX as the host RR holds all the track access rights.
Very true. That being said passenger trains have been operated from this site in the Amtrak era. Amtrak's previous operating agreement at this site with Conrail and Penn Central would almost certainly carry forward.
Not sure it's that simple. The track isn't in place to serve the platforms, which is the least of the operational troubles. Any agreements for Conrail would likely have lapsed with the CSX/NS split.
 #1426287  by gokeefe
 
mtuandrew wrote:Any agreements for Conrail would likely have lapsed with the CSX/NS split.
Trackage and operating rights typically are negotiated in perpetuity (or for 999 years etc). For example the B&M's agreements with the MBTA convey perpetual freight rights to it's successors (Guilford & Pan Am).

Although I agree that the missing trackage is an obstacle there are examples everywhere in the railroad world where iron going missing has no legal effect on operational rights.

Of all companies and of all cases I think Amtrak at BCT would have a strong if not iron clad case.
 #1426310  by Jeff Smith
 
Canalside out?: BuffaloRising.com

Fair-use:
Central Terminal as Preferred Amtrak Station Gains Momentum

This was a big week for the Central Terminal, as far as its future as a train station is concerned. It started off with a troop of distinguished architects pinpointing the terminal as the best choice for the Amtrak station. Throughout the week, others continued to band together behind the terminal as the preferred site. And now the momentum continues to build, with Assemblyman Sean Ryan who recently sent a letter to the Erie Canal Harbor Development Corporation (ECHDC), asking that Canalside be withdrawn from consideration.

The response from ECHDC Chairman Robert Gioia was that Canalside would not be a good fit for intermodal purposes, and that if the North Aud Block site was not chosen, the ECHDC would accept the decision.
...
 #1426311  by Jeff Smith
 
Or is BCT gaining steam? : Buffalo News

Fair-Use:
State officials, consultant take issue with Higgins over Central Terminal

State officials and the consultant studying sites for a new Buffalo train station are pushing back against key elements of Rep. Brian Higgins' argument for locating the facility at Central Terminal.

While saying they are not taking sides in the increasingly contentious debate over whether the train station should be at that East Side historic landmark or downtown, state officials and their consultant questioned Higgins' cost estimates showing a Central Terminal location would be cheaper.

And while Higgins has repeatedly said the downtown site for the station could be at Canalside, the consultant said the popular tourist attraction isn't one of the central options anymore because the site there could not accommodate bus traffic. The consultant's preliminary cost estimates show three downtown site options near the current train station on Exchange Street and none at Canalside.

"As part of our contract, we were tasked to assess the various locations for the replacement of the downtown Buffalo train station," said Mark Tytka, area manager and vice president of WSP Parsons Brinckerhoff, the consulting firm preparing a report for a committee that will decide the train station's location next month. "We are down to two locations: downtown and Central Terminal."
...
 #1426317  by Greg Moore
 
There's a lot of factors that go into a good train station and I think one thing we're beginning to re-recognize is that grandeur matters.

NYP is an exception to this rule. Because of its location, it can be a dump and still "successful". That said, even there, all future plans show something far more grand than that it currently is.

I think BCT has the chance to be similar. It may NOT be the most practical, but, I think it has the chance to bring back grandeur. And I think that's a good thing in two ways. One, I think aesthetics can and do matter and we should be willing to pay a bit more for them.
But also, it means that stations can become more than simply the rail equivalent of a bus terminal. They can become centers of business and the like. Heck, I've been known to stop by WAS simply looking for food or a specific shop.

Yeah, there are practical and cost issues to deal with, but at the end of the day, CSX is a business. Make it worth their while and they'll have no problem with a new bridge (higher of course) to the platforms, or restoring some platforms. Really it comes down to will power and money.

Name it the Governor Cuomo Buffalo Central Transit Center and the money fill flow.
 #1426324  by gokeefe
 
Jeff Smith wrote:Canalside out?
Looks pretty close to me ...

Who would have ever believed it if anyone said 10 years ago that both St. Paul Union Depot and Buffalo Central Terminal would be restored to service (let alone the "crazy" possibility that Michigan Central Station could follow suit as well).
 #1426420  by mtuandrew
 
SPUD became a possibility when paired with the Green Line LRT to Minneapolis, intercity buses being strong-armed into the facility, and the promise of commuter rail. Pair BCT reuse with the long-discussed Airport Line LRT, some commitments from intercity bus operators to serve the facility, and some proposals for a small commuter rail system (even if it's a pipe dream), and you'll answer the transportation questions.

(Speaking of perceptions, for Pete's sake, listen to the local residents and leaders on how to make BCT relevant to the neighborhood as well as to the city and region. A secure parking lot is a good thing, but a stable neighborhood is a lot more effective form of safety.)
 #1428739  by Jeff Smith
 
Downtown it is: Buffalo News

Fair-use SNIPS:
...
Eleven members of the selection committee voted for downtown, four voted against downtown and one abstained. Three of those voting against downtown said the station should be put at the Central Terminal.

"The work will continue now with the Department of Transportation to decide the optimal location downtown, given the several locations that are still part of the downtown mix," the mayor said.
...
The consultant found downtown to be a better choice than the Central Terminal by an identical score of 3 to 1 in five of the criteria: location in relation to population, employment, entertainment and activity centers; operational efficiency; intermodal connectivity; construction costs; and site readiness.

The two locations tied when it came to evaluating environmental factors.

The state has set aside $25 million for a new station. Additional government money will be needed to pay for the rest. A new Amtrak station would replace the current station, considered too small and dingy for a city the size of Buffalo.
...
The Central Terminal faced several hurdles.

The Amtrak representative on the committee voted in favor of a downtown site.

The freight railroad CSX, which owns most of the track, didn't want passenger rail at the Central Terminal. It warned Amtrak trains would disrupt one of its busiest rail yards in the state.

And intercity bus companies represented on the committee said they also preferred being downtown, warning business would suffer at the Central Terminal. Concerns were also expressed about low clearance bridges there.

The cost factor may have been the biggest hurdle for the Central Terminal to overcome. The probable cost to ready it for a train station was pegged from $68 million to $149 million, depending on the type of services, compared to $33 million to $86 million for downtown.
...
 #1428808  by Barnard Crossing
 
Noel Weaver wrote:You're not going to even get started for 10 million.
Noel Weaver
I used to volunteer with the BCT resto group, years ago when it was a fledgling organization, and before the problems it had. Estimates roughly 20 years ago put restoration of the terminal, and not the tower, at $50M, the damage was that bad. Our job at the time was to A) Secure the terminal, and B) To start clean up efforts. I'm proud of what we were able to do, but at the time had reservations about what could actually be done with the property. It's in a rough part of town, and quite frankly was never a net boon to the surrounding neighborhood. There was resistance to it being built in the first place, and rightfully so, hubris and corporatism put it two miles from downtown, the Central figured the city would be 'pulled' towards the terminal, that's how arrogant the powers that be at more than a few American railroads were, at the time.

Four months later, the NYSE collapsed.

As an aside, at the age of 5 (1979) I was on one of the last Amtrak trains which left the terminal, going east to Rochester. I can remember some tidbits, plain as day. The waiting room with the murals of scenes of NY State, we waited there until it was time to board the train (Empire States Express?). That waiting room today is a disaster. I remember the huge benches and whatnot, the high ceiling, and the murals. The main hall was closed off, I vaguely remember that part. The terminal itself was intact. Within several years it was a disaster.

Just an FYI, a great-grandmother of mine worked in the tower as a "car counter" for the Central, and retired from the railroad around 1950 or so.

A great photographer named Chuck Maley took photos of it at various intervals, pictures I looked at years ago to get a reference as to how the terminal looked 25-30 years ago:

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=buffal ... l01%2Ehtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Those are the first photos of the terminal I viewed in '98, online, before getting out of the service.

Like other NY Central terminals, the RR had wanted to get rid of it as early as the 50's. Buffalo itself was a city in decline as far back as the 20's, WW II helped it, but the city, and later the Niagara Frontier, were in trouble by the 50's, according to various data sets, and people like my dad who grew up there, and who, at one point or another, left the area. I believe the blame rests on various entities, one big one being NY State government, and if anyone here doesn't believe me as to the latter, just look at what Niagara Falls, NY, turned into.

The station in Rochester was partially demolished, such that the Central/PennCentral could save a little on property taxes. The property tax issue was first and foremost on the minds of the powers that be of the railroad, back in the 50's.

I don't know what the BCT could be turned into, as a profitable entity, but i do know it would be a bear to heat, and there are other basic issues to address. Heat? I would argue that geothermal could be a savior for the terminal, if someone come along and wants to invest in it. Geothermal could also be used to kin of cool the place, during summer.

i hate to see such a wonderful property go out of favor, but really, now. Who has the resources to rehab the property and make into something useful?
 #1428815  by gokeefe
 
I'm glad they came as close as they did. CSX gets a big vote and I think their position is very reasonable. Hopefully they will appreciate the cooperation in this matter from Buffalo and repay the favor in the future.
 #1428847  by ExCon90
 
Barnard Crossing wrote:The station in Rochester was partially demolished, such that the Central/PennCentral could save a little on property taxes. The property tax issue was first and foremost on the minds of the powers that be of the railroad, back in the 50's.
...make that "could save A LOT on property taxes." New York State was notorious for assessing railroad property at a much higher rate than adjoining property ("what's the railroad gonna do? Move away? Come on...") Railroad managers with an obligation to shareholders had to have property taxes very much in mind when considering operating costs. When a federal law was passed sometime later requiring assessments more in keeping with those on adjacent property it made a big hole in budgets of school districts all over the State.
 #1428930  by Tadman
 
And that's a big part of why giant stations fell out of favor. Can you imagine the cost to heat, light, staff, clean, secure, and tax a palace at every moderate city on the NYC?
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