CPSK wrote:So it is possible that the engineer missed the stop signal that was supposed to be the limit of the wye move. Perhaps if backing, there was no one on the rear end watching the signals? Sounds like a breach in rules, but I can only speculate, and it's not fair to do that.What I am saying is that there was no missed signal. Signals are typically left clear all the way to Cynwyd once a train is routed onto the 52nd St ramp.
The fact that the train was on an unscheduled move helps to explain how the train was routed onto the SEPTA track in the first place. The press never said a word about the train being turned. Of course, we should never rely on what we see on TV, read in the newspapers, or hear on the radio.
CP
Railroad Forums
PHL to NYP goes to Bala Cynwyd? - Keystone at Bala Cynwyd
- Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman
I'm not from that area, and not familiar with the operations there. There's often an "inside baseball" quality to the majority of the postings, leaving us in other parts of the country guessing.
Questions:
I recently rode the "Pennsylvanian" from New York to Pittsburgh, and that train was pulled "backwards" by an electric as far as Philly, and then a diesel (Dash 8) was attached to the other end, and the train was pulled "forward" to Pittsburgh, via Harrisburg. Is this operation method true for ALL Keystone trains? Would an electric or diesel been powering the train at the time of this diversion to the Septa station.
Questions:
I recently rode the "Pennsylvanian" from New York to Pittsburgh, and that train was pulled "backwards" by an electric as far as Philly, and then a diesel (Dash 8) was attached to the other end, and the train was pulled "forward" to Pittsburgh, via Harrisburg. Is this operation method true for ALL Keystone trains? Would an electric or diesel been powering the train at the time of this diversion to the Septa station.
From what I gather, the train was powered by the locomotive (AEM7) from Harrisburg to Philadelphia. The cab car (located on the opposite end of the train) was having an operational problem, so they made the decsion to run the train to the 52nd Street viaduct, which leads to Cynwyd, so that they could get the locomotive facing railroad east to commence the trip to New York.
What went wrong is that either the engineer was mis-informed, or that he mistakenly took the clear (or whatever that aspect was) as where he should put the train, not realizing all he had to do was pull the train up past the bridge so that they could return eastward. Instead, he proceeded up the Cynwyd branch, albeit not very far, all the way to the end. The crew was not qualified, and thus had to wait fora SEPTA pilot to bring them back to 30th Street.
At least, this is what I have gathered..
What went wrong is that either the engineer was mis-informed, or that he mistakenly took the clear (or whatever that aspect was) as where he should put the train, not realizing all he had to do was pull the train up past the bridge so that they could return eastward. Instead, he proceeded up the Cynwyd branch, albeit not very far, all the way to the end. The crew was not qualified, and thus had to wait fora SEPTA pilot to bring them back to 30th Street.
At least, this is what I have gathered..
That corresponds with what I've seen about it: nobody ran a stop signal, since there wasn't one as explained by Jersey Mike. One question is why the conductor, who was on the leading end, and was or should have been in communication with the engineer on the engine at the rear, didn't have the train stopped to report that the crew was not qualified to proceed further. I believe it's standard practice, if a train or engine crew is directed to proceed into territory where they're not qualified, to inform the dispatcher of that fact. (As it was, they had to wait for a qualified person to get out there to act as a pilot to get them back to home territory.) Since there were no fatalities, injuries, or damage to equipment, this may be simply an internal investigation not involving the FRA; there may be no telling how much of what transpires in the investigation will be made public.
(By the way, that second photo is a rarity: a low-level bracket signal comprising two dwarfs, governing respectively the left- and right-hand tracks.)
(By the way, that second photo is a rarity: a low-level bracket signal comprising two dwarfs, governing respectively the left- and right-hand tracks.)
It is conceivable that the conductor may have been confused about where to stop, assuming they needed to go past CP-JEFF to the duckunder, but that doesn't explain why they kept going to Cynwyd. The eastbound signal at CP-JEFF (it's a controlled point BTW, not technically an interlocking) would have automatically flipped up to Approach as soon as the train entered the single track. The even the engineer should have asked if it was time to stop.
If it makes you guys feel any better, this morning's news noted that an Atlas Air-operated 747 "Dreamlifter" cargo plane landed at the wrong airport. Also, the runway isn't rated long enough to get her off the ground again. Imagine, if you will, SEPTA coming back to Amtrak and saying "by the way, we're slapping a weight restriction on the 52nd street bridge and your Keystone train can't get back to PHL...
The new Acela: It's not Aveliable.
Tadman wrote:If it makes you guys feel any better, this morning's news noted that an Atlas Air-operated 747 "Dreamlifter" cargo plane landed at the wrong airport. Also, the runway isn't rated long enough to get her off the ground again. Imagine, if you will, SEPTA coming back to Amtrak and saying "by the way, we're slapping a weight restriction on the 52nd street bridge and your Keystone train can't get back to PHL...A little late, they've already flown the 747 Dreamlifter out.
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The engineer may have been running from the cab car on the head end. Yes, the conductor could have been in the engine on the rear end.
Or, the engineer was in the engine on the rear end that was pushing the train, and the conductor was in the cab car on the head end calling the signals. But, then the engineer might have had an easy time telling when he was past the switch and signal where he was to reverse and head for New York.
Or, the engineer was in the engine on the rear end that was pushing the train, and the conductor was in the cab car on the head end calling the signals. But, then the engineer might have had an easy time telling when he was past the switch and signal where he was to reverse and head for New York.
You beat me to it Tadman...I just came to this forum to post about the Dreamliner going down its own wrong path. Now we just need a ship to get lost next week...when I moved to northeastern Maryland almost 10 years ago, I had no idea about the existence of the C&D canal. I was in Havre de Grace one afternoon and saw a huge container ship off in the distance near Turkey Point. I assumed it had gotten lost on its way to Baltimore! (in fact, it was going to Philadelphia)
Tadman wrote: I've also never seen a system with such a high degree of animosity from the ridership.I guess you've never ridden on the "T" in Boston...
There used to be a website called badtransit.com dedicated to the "T".
Dr. Mark Emanuele Ph.D. (Stands for Pile it Higher and Deeper 8^)...)
Consulting Engineer
Watergap Media Group
Consulting Engineer
Watergap Media Group
I never thought Boston had half the problems Philly had/has. My dad and aunt both went to school out there, so I've made a few trips, and I like the T. It reminds me a bit of the CTA in that it's a legacy system, so you have a lot of figurative baggage to deal with, but they are doing a half decent job of doing so. The vibe I get from Philly transit fans is that Stevie Wonder could run SEPTA better.
I think just about any city dweller has a certain degree of animosity toward their system for the shenanigans we've become conditioned to expect. Last week I waited so long for a darn train around lunch that I could've rode a rental bike to my meeting in less time. "Thanks for nothing ya jamokes...". Like fellow member LIRR42 says, "you've truly become a resident of a big city when you stop being puzzled by the subway and just started hating it".
I think just about any city dweller has a certain degree of animosity toward their system for the shenanigans we've become conditioned to expect. Last week I waited so long for a darn train around lunch that I could've rode a rental bike to my meeting in less time. "Thanks for nothing ya jamokes...". Like fellow member LIRR42 says, "you've truly become a resident of a big city when you stop being puzzled by the subway and just started hating it".
The new Acela: It's not Aveliable.
This should not be. CETC controls the NEC territory. CETC whould have stopped this, but the key has never been turned for automation. I do not want to see anyone needlessly on the hook.
According to all reports so far, there was no dispatcher error and no block-operator error, so it doesn't matter whether CETC is cut in yet or not; any errors were made by the train and engine crew and would have happened in the same way regardless of who was controlling the signals.
Tadman wrote:Imagine, if you will, SEPTA coming back to Amtrak and saying "by the way, we're slapping a weight restriction on the 52nd street bridge and your Keystone train can't get back to PHL...The return route is through a tunnel to 52nd St. Lower Level. Only outbound trains normally use the upper level at 52nd St. which leads to the bridge.
In the 1980s, S.E.P.T.A. put a weight restriction on Swarthmore trestle in the middle of the day while Media Yard was empty and trapped the Amtrak ballast train at Glen Mills Quarry.
How did Amtrak finally get their ballast train back? Great timing on SEPTA's part! 
The Land of Enchantment is not Flyover country!