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  • Pre-Amtrak boarding procedures: lines, ticket checks, etc.?

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1220028  by Tadman
 
dt_rt40 wrote:He somehow hung unto the train.... Someone in K tower saw him, and radioed to the train that they had someone holding on. ...
I very much welcome any corroboration on this story from in-the-know people here; hard to believe it wasn't widely discussed in NEC/Amtrak circles.
I can't corroborate this story, but it did happen in Chicago a few years back. A guy jumped on the back (closed) door of a South Shore EMU train and held on until he was radio'ed in a few hundred yards down the track. They pulled him off, arrested him, and sent him a bill for the flatspots caused when the dumped the air after hearing they had a stowaway on the back of the train. Not sure how it turned out.
 #1220788  by ThirdRail7
 
PC1100 wrote:ThirdRail7 do you know when the ushers and station masters were abolished at Newark, Trenton, and Baltimore?
They started abolishing the ushers in the mid 90s. Trenton went first. They also lost their baggage personnel and red caps. The station masters were abolished after the mail was cut. The positions were folded into a customer service manager similar to the off corridor operations.
SouthernRailway wrote: If Amtrak's ridership should be forced to bend to accommodate the very lowest common denominator, why doesn't Amtrak, say, keep all of its trains waiting at station stops for 1 hour, since surely there's someone who could miss a train due to an inability to get to the station on time?
If that's your interpretation of the matter, than it already exists. Some examples are subtle such as the rules that require employees to observe the platforms when departing stations. Some are glaring such as the quiet car. I'd bet Amtrak receives more correspondence regarding the quiet car than people waiting in lines to have their tickets checked. Some people love the quiet car. Others can't stand the concept of being in public and riding public transportation and being told to be quiet or their keyboard is being tapped too loud or you're snoring etc. The very premise of the quiet car (which has expanded to other carriers) is that you're making a space that calls for (relative) quiet because the assumption is that someone that will eventually board the train is too rude and/or oblivious to know they are being loud...which is subjective.
dt_rt40 wrote:OK, I'm glad this thread wasn't locked, and I'm not trying to stir up trouble by reactivating it. But I have the perfect anecdote about how no amount of hold-out procedures can truly prevent utter idiocy.

<SNIP>

I very much welcome any corroboration on this story from in-the-know people here; hard to believe it wasn't widely discussed in NEC/Amtrak circles. (OTOH, it's quite possible they've been told not to discuss the incident) This is NOT something I would or even could make up. If some of you think "that's too outlandish to believe" I won't feel bad. But the point is if MARC passengers aren't being closely monitored, are there's no way to practically monitor them closely, this sort of thing can happen as long as people are that stupid.

Your details are a bit off, but the basic story is true. However, Hi55us summed up the bottom line:

hi55us wrote:
As stated before in the thread, ushers won't prevent stupid people from doing stupid things...
That being said, if the person with the obvious death wish was injured, how much money would the jury would have awarded him since there weren't enough people to protect him from himself?
 #1237912  by Greg Moore
 
To add to just the general complaint about boarding procedures, part of the problem is definitely the passengers themselves.

Now we're all probably guilty of wanting "just the right seat" (for me, Empire Service it's left side, about mid-way up the car... unless it's the time of year where I'll get the setting sun in my eyes.)

But as trains fill up, you start to see more and more people enter cars from both ends and walk towards the other end looking for seats. So of course they cross in the middle and create a bottleneck in the middle. I think it would definitely help if two things happened (and neither will :-)

1) People adopted a policy, at least on very crowded trains, of "taking the first available seats" )(and perhaps if necessary, asking singletons to double-up so family can sit together as much as possible.)

2) Everyone boards from say the rear end of the car and walks forward. (yeah, good luck with that :-)

Writing this, it dawns on me, it may be useful on the more crowded trains to close the boarding doors of cars as they get full. But that would require more personnel during and a decent knowledge that the car is actually full.

That said, I think train 291 right now is darn near capacity! The car I'm in filled up 10 minutes ago and folks are still passing through looking for seats.
 #1237920  by Patrick Boylan
 
Greg Moore wrote: But as trains fill up, you start to see more and more people enter cars from both ends and walk towards the other end looking for seats. So of course they cross in the middle and create a bottleneck in the middle.
I think that's preferable to bottlenecks closer to the vestibules, which could happen if
Greg Moore wrote: 1) People adopted a policy, at least on very crowded trains, of "taking the first available seats"
Greg Moore wrote: 2) Everyone boards from say the rear end of the car and walks forward. (yeah, good luck with that :-)
I remember in the late 1970's Amfleet cars' illuminated signs, besides saying "restroom other way", said "exit", and there may have been exterior signs that said 'exit' and 'entrance'. I thought that was a very good idea, but apparently didn't get practiced or enforced enough.
 #1238103  by AgentSkelly
 
Maybe someone can shed some light on this but I heard once from an old timer that the pre-boarding procedure used at larger stations in the Pacific NW goes back to Great Northern?
 #1262698  by Ken S.
 
Patrick Boylan wrote:
Greg Moore wrote: But as trains fill up, you start to see more and more people enter cars from both ends and walk towards the other end looking for seats. So of course they cross in the middle and create a bottleneck in the middle.
I think that's preferable to bottlenecks closer to the vestibules, which could happen if
Greg Moore wrote: 1) People adopted a policy, at least on very crowded trains, of "taking the first available seats"
Greg Moore wrote: 2) Everyone boards from say the rear end of the car and walks forward. (yeah, good luck with that :-)
I remember in the late 1970's Amfleet cars' illuminated signs, besides saying "restroom other way", said "exit", and there may have been exterior signs that said 'exit' and 'entrance'. I thought that was a very good idea, but apparently didn't get practiced or enforced enough.
The decal sheets included with the original Walthers Amfleet I cars had "Enter" and "Exit" decals for the little windows near the doors. I'm not sure about the decal sheets for the new versions.
 #1262700  by Ken S.
 
jamesinclair wrote:
ThirdRail7 wrote:Newark is not a hub, terminal or originating passenger station.
For Amtrak, no, but of course it is for NJ Transit.

It's a major hub, it is a terminal for one line, and it is a large originating station, never mind transfers from the subway or local bus.

Is it New York Penn? No, but nothing is.

As you mentioned, it would be terribly inconvenient to have ticket checkers due to the layout.

That says to me that if it were inconvenient at other stations, it wouldn't be done either.

Ticket checks are done because they CAN be done, not because they SHOULD be done.
Newark also has PATH discharging passengers from Platform H onto the 3/4 platform. Pre-boarding ticket checks there would be next to impossible with PATH passengers going straight to the platforms from those trains unless they were all funneled to the concourse first, but I doubt NJT would go for the idea.
 #1262742  by ryanov
 
SouthernRailway wrote:Anyone who is idiotic enough to leave a BMW running in crime-ridden downtown Newark while spending the time it takes to go all the way to a platform at Newark Penn Station (which would be at least a few minutes) is beyond the range of being able to be helped, even by Amtrak agents at the station.
You aren't safe leaving your car running and unlocked in any place. There is no need to slander downtown Newark, which has an unremarkable crime rate.
 #1262743  by ryanov
 
electricron wrote:Newark's Penn Station has 6 platforms (8 tracks) for passengers to navigate compared to 11 platforms (21 tracks) at New York's Penn Station.
Obviously, New York's Penn Station is larger and more confusing than Newark's.
And not really even that many. 6 tracks in regular train service, only 3 of which are habitually used by Amtrak.

Incidentally, I like the boarding situation at NYP. If you know what you're doing, you can skate right past it, and it makes it very easy for you to get a seat without standing around in line.
 #1265825  by Tadman
 
ryanov wrote:
SouthernRailway wrote:Anyone who is idiotic enough to leave a BMW running in crime-ridden downtown Newark while spending the time it takes to go all the way to a platform at Newark Penn Station (which would be at least a few minutes) is beyond the range of being able to be helped, even by Amtrak agents at the station.
You aren't safe leaving your car running and unlocked in any place. There is no need to slander downtown Newark, which has an unremarkable crime rate.
I know little of Newark, but I tend to agree with Southern and quite heartily disagree with Ryanov. There are absolutely places you can be safe leaving your car running and unlocked. This quite common in a lot of small towns. I grew up in such places which weren't abnormally wealthy or poor and we did left keys in and running sometimes. That said, leaving your car running in a bigger city train station lot is probably not the brightest idea. There are many more people and you're just as likely to have a thrills-motivated theft as a fiscally-motivated theft in a bigger city.
 #1265945  by maddoxdy
 
Woodcrest295 wrote:This is the reason i Like Newark Penn over NY Penn. Philadelphia checks tickets before boarding but the station is so stately and departing is so easy that i dont really mind at all.... except for the Keystones/Pennsylvanian you always wait for the train to come whether your first on line or last.
I used to ride the Metroliner weekly to DC from 30th St. I would see everybody line up at the top of the stairs, while I sat and read my paper. Once everybody went through the ticket check. I would go and get mine and go down to the platform. I saw no need to stand in line, it didn't get you there any quicker.

Interested to see how it works when we go on the Silver Palm next week.

Doug M
 #1265979  by Stmtrolleyguy
 
A large part of the problem IS that we, collectively, have forgotten how to board trains in an orderly fashion. As a friend would say, the passengers aren't stupid - just uninformed. Back in the heyday, people knew how to board trains, because boarding trains was something they did frequently - like crossing the street, or properly setting a table for a three-course meal. People knew and understood they had to get on the right train, to the right place - and to ASK if they were confused. Boarding a train is a collective skill, that if not used, will fade and disappear.

People today don't travel by train as much - so you get this mob mentality. Commuters may know that they need to follow the station signs to get on their train - but they have no concept of who's train it is. They see other trains, with different colors and logos, but they just assume they go to other places that they've never been. The average commuter knows hes at Providence, and going to Boston, and follows the signs accordingly. It never crosses his mind that he takes an MBTA train, and that there's a different AMTRAK train that also goes to the same place. To him, it's just the trains that arrive at the times the schedule in his pocket says. Any other trains don't matter to him. People don't associate the vehicle with their travel. (No one notices that its "a" #6 bus they take in the morning - but its not always the same physical bus, in the same colors, with the same signs. People don't notice that the PanAm airplane they got on says "TWA" on the side. They just know they need the #6 bus, or a PanAm flight. (Just using them as an example.)

The way we board airplanes, we REALLY treat people like cattle. You're checked, and checked again to make sure you're in the right place. There are zillions of signs directing you to your gate. Gates are generally known HOURS in advance. Everyone shows up early, then crams the waiting area until the plane boards. And people still cram on, or want to board early, to get luggage space before it fills up. (For some strange reason, we even let the premium-seat first class passengers board first, then get whacked by everyone elses luggage while they walk past them to get to their seats.) We treat people like cattle, so people get used to being hearded.

Then you drop these people in a train station - there's no separate terminals for different railroads. You have trains that make more then one stop (unlike most airplanes.) People are actually free to mill around - and they don't know what to do with themselves. There's no track assigned to the train - so people have no idea where to wait. Once a track is called, they all hurriedly run for the train, to make sure they're in the right place at the right time. They think maybe everyone else knows something they didn't, and the train might leave without them. Most of them probably assume that the poor person doing the ticket check won't let them on the wrong train. (It almost never happens at airports.)

They were on to something when they stuck a giant information booth right in the middle of Grand Central, where today we'd call it prime real estate for a Dunkin Donuts or Starbucks.
The way we're boarding the trains now gives passengers mixed signals. They see people, and assume they're there to help - even if they're just glorified gatekeepers. They don't have enough information to make informed judgements on their own, and learn to deal with the consequences of missing a train either. Either force people to go more on their own and learn, or make the human help actually. . .helpful. (Yes, I know how hard that could be.)


Let me provide a quick example of something that we know and do, but wouldn't be totally obvious to an outsider. We all know how to use an elevator - get in, push the button for your floor, get off at your floor. It's easy, right? Well imagine a 1920s passenger trying to use a modern elevator. They're used to elevators with human operators - you tell the guy where you want to go, and he does all the rest. We know that elevators do things automatically - like opening and closing the doors. Someone from the 1920's doesn't, They see a giant wall of numbered buttons, an open door button, a close door button, and a call button. So what do you do? Push the call button to call the operator? Push the door close button to close the door, then wonder why nothing happens? So once the elevator starts moving, you can't see the floor numbers in the elevator shaft - so how do you know where you are? More importantly, how do you tell the elevator to stop? The same way someone from the 1920's doesn't know how to use an elevator, we don't know how to board a train. Its not always a question of what to do - but how to do it.
 #1266083  by Suburban Station
 
sometimes i use the quiet car because im tired and want quiet. other times i need to get work done. most times i dont use the quiet car because i like talking to other passengers or arent bothered by noise. i dont buy that the quiet car is needed because people are rude. if that were the case youd make them all quiet
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